doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "The Queen of Guns"

You're very welcome Sir, I know what you mean about the Model 12, a lot of people love those guns.

No . . . but I did carry an M-1 for a long time. Broke the stock on the one I was issued in Basic . . . overly enthusiastic "butt stroke" on a bayonet assault course. Thought my $78/month pay would disappear for awhile to pay for it. Instead, the drill instructor--who I think was pretty surprised, because M-1's make excellent clubs--got a big smile on his face and said: "By God, that's the spirit of the bayonet!"

No, I was thinking of the Kent 1 1/4 oz TM loads--which they stopped making. But like any 1 1/4 oz load, those could also kill on both ends in a 16ga, if it happened to be a light one.

Larry,
I hardly ever use an 1 1/4 in a 12! My Dad bought a lot of locally produced (Federal, right up the street) 1 1/4oz loads prior to steel becoming the law. If he saw them out of season, on sale at the gas station, he would buy them all.

I have a bunch of 12 gauge lead 4s in that load that are pretty much useless to me.

1 oz loads, in a 16, is about all I can stand. Out of the Nitro, those loads are lively, but, doable. I wouldn't shoot sporting clays with them, but, for mopping up late season roosters, at local WMAs, on birds that have seen some pressure, they are about perfect. More walking than shooting (sometimes, it becomes a bit of a track meet) in that case, and a 16 works well with those loads, even more so if the place is non tox only.

Best,
Ted

Ted, pity demand couldn't keep around Kent's 12ga TM 2 1/2 inch 30 grams fibre wad 7500 psi. A joy to shoot and poison for waterfowl; I used only No. 5s.

I have to brace my feet with current Kent TM 1 1/4 on high-angle shots using Beretta 686. (I gave away a flat for xmas presents for that reason.)

In my opinion a light weight 16 gauge upland bird gun is not a good waterfowl gun and for waterfowl, I use a much heavier 12 gauge. Nor do I want to haul a heavy 16 gauge shotgun around the uplands or any other heavy shotgun regardless of gauge.

My #2 AyA weighs 6 lbs. 2 oz. choked Imp. and Mod. patterns 1 or 1 1/8 oz. loads beautifully from her 2 triggered controlled barrels. For upland birds 1 and 1 1/8 oz. of ejecta is all that I need.

Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think that the slim profile of a sidelock 16 gauge SxS with a straight stock, splinter grip and two triggers is what a Upland Queen should look like.

As a general rule neither the 1� oz 16 short magnum nor the 1� oz 3" 20mag is loaded to as high a velocity as the 3 3/4-1� 12ga load thus can be shot out of a bit lighter gun. I have shot a few 3" 20's from a 6� lb gun. You definitely knew it went off & would certainly not desire to shoot a round of clays with it, but under hunting conditions with thick clothes & not a bunch of shots fired in rapid order it wasn't bad. Have also shot a handload oif 1�oz from a 16 of similar weight @ a lowered velocity & it was even milder. Shooting steel of course you have a lighter charge weight with higher velocity. Space in the shell is really the limiting factor for either a 16 or 3" 20 when it comes to waterfowling. They were both adequate for most of it when Lead was still legal. Non-Tox was their downfall as far as waterfowling goes.

Miller,
True that. While researching a 20 gauge Prandelli & Gasperini (Richland Arms) double I came into a while back, I found an article by Francis E. Sell in the 1977 Gun Digest, titled "The Twenty Comes of Age" detailing his notion of using the 20 with big lead loads for geese and ducks. Within three hunting seasons, most of what he wrote was obsolete with regards to waterfowling and heavy loads of lead shot.
The same issue had an article on the then new Ithaca 3 1/2" Mag 10, an ominus bellwether of things to come.
About 1978, or so, I used a Remington model 17, with 2 3/4" high brass loads of lead 6s, to hunt ducks near Cold Spring, MN., on a small private lake with a maximum depth of about 6 feet or so, and wild rice covering about 80% of it. We had spectacular hunting, and at no time did I feel under gunned. When I did my part, the teal and mallards rained from the sky.
I never hunted ducks with a 20 after that day, and never hunted ducks again after steel became mandatory.


Best,
Ted

Francis Sell was a big proponent of the 20ga 3" mag. That Richland 707 isn't a lightweight 20, and I'm pretty sure I recall that they were offered with 30" barrels. More or less Sell's idea of a "light duck"/moderately heavy (for a 20) upland gun.

A Richland 707 is the 3" 20 of which I spoke, They were available in 30", but mine was 28". As I recall they could also be had in 26". By actual measurement on an accurate scale mine weighed 6� lbs. They were as I recall generally advertized @ 6 3/4lbs with the 30" barrels. As I recall I bought this one mail order for $129.95 & it was the last gun I bought that I didn't have to sign a form for. It was of course a long way from a "London Best" but was a lot of gun for the money. Ended up giving it to my Son when he started hunting with me & he still has it. He did kill several ducks with it though the only waterfowl I ever personally shot AT with it was that one Blue Goose. This was all in the days of lead. The use my Son made of it on ducks we were hunting in a swamp & shots were close as far as ducks go. He killed his with 1oz of #6 shot quite dead, as they say you can't get any Deader than Dead.