doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "The Queen of Guns"

"Assuming" patters of equal percentage & like distribution the range of different loads are equal to the Sq Root of the charge. Thus 1oz should have 89% the range of 1�oz. The 1oz would thus be equal at 36yds to the 1� oz at 40.
"IF" on the other hand you fired the 1�oz out of a 12, a sixteen short magnum & a 3" 20 magnum I have grave doubts you find a Yards worth of difference in the three. I think you would find as much difference between any two different guns, even in the same gauge, as you would from gauge to gauge.
As to "Discipline" I believe you will find as many, Probably More, shooters who when they have a "Big" gun feel they can hit anything they can see.
I recall reading a story in a hunting mag years ago where the writer was making the case for a pump gun as the ideal Duck gun. One of his reasoning pints was that the hunter would only shoot twice & reserve the third shot for cripples. "Maybe" he hunted that way, but my thoughts then & still are the "Average" hunter as long as there is a bird in the air & a shell in t5he gun Will Shoot. I have grave & serious doubts that hunters who enjoy & use a double leave any more cripples due to the "Lack" of that reserve shot than do those using pumps or semi-autos. The Discipline to know the limits applies just as much at one end as it does at the other.

The 3" 20 has taken its share of knocks for a long time. But guys I respect--including a writer who's never been a fan of 20ga mags--tell me they're a lot better now than they used to be. And pretty obviously, in the case of steel shot (where there's basically zero pellet deformation), you're guaranteed to get a denser pattern with a 3" 20ga than you are a 16 at any range. Reason: The 3" 20 carries a heavier shot charge.

Slight diversion: In the Army, Infantry is the "Queen of Battle". Artillery is the king. And the Queen tells the King where to put the balls.

OK then...12ga. Barrels on a sixteen gauge frame, that uses 12ga. loads the size of twenty ga. Shells....lol

Mr. Brown with all do respect, when you were in weren't they still using flintlocks?

More on point I've taken geese with a 16 gauge using Kent's Tm but that was when we were out duck hunting and I'm an average to below average shot at best.

I believe these are the loads of which you speak, Larry:



I have a good stock of these laid in, am I to understand they are no longer produced? I haven't hunted waterfowl in thirty years, but, seeing the results on real, wild, pheasants, with these, makes me question how someone could say a 20 gauge load, even a 3" 20 gauge load, could be superior. I don't own a 20 that I would be in a hurry to feed 3" ammunition. A lot of them kill on both ends when loaded like that.

I was checked by a warden at a federal WMA, and I'm sure he thought he had me on a non-toxic shot violation when he saw 16 gauge ammunition.

Best,
Ted

A rattle:

Interesting takes, gentlemen, but in reading the entire thread I see only one ref to the 'size' [frame's circumference] of the gun being of import & to me that is one of the nicer attributes of the 16's, particularly in the SxS iteration(s), a little more bore that carries as well as a twenty. Many 20 gauge guns are built on 16ga. sized frames, making them a bit larger than if built 'to scale'. There are exceptions, of course. Merkel, at the urging of Joe McBride in Austin after some years of discussion finally started building 16/20's, which made a delightfully smaller than normal framed/sized 16. There are others.

I may be mistaken on this, but believe that for many makers, they only had a couple of frame sizes, a 12ga. and a 16 ga. that was also used for making 20 ga. guns. That certainly held true for the Model 12 Winchesters, inclusive of the 28ga. guns. Plenty of folks here that can chime in w/hard fact(s) on specific makers.

From my own limited experiences w/16's that began with an old Stevens 311 type w/two triggers that I didn't have any sense whatsoever about using correctly at the time.. but became a fast learner after shooting it w/two fingers inside the trigger guard, ouch(!), to using some much nicer guns as I was able to afford them; it just seems that many of those guns have had a good 'feel' to them, meaning that esoteric was present in sufficient quantity to make hunting w/them & shooting them pleasant. Only speaking to upland applications as I have no experience using one for waterfowl & I'm not sure it would apply from a blind in any case. I liken some 16ga. SxS's to the 3XX series Beretta gas guns that started w/the AL-1 that so many sporty clays shooters have adopted to good success.. they have a liveliness to them in the hands w/o being cumbersome to bring into play. In the same breath, I'd not wish to shoot significant quantities of 1oz./28gram loads in a lightweight 16 anymore than I would a 20. 7/8's oz. or 25 grams is sufficient for clays, most upland game and enjoyable to shoot.

With the Model 12, there was a 12 gauge frame and a 20 gauge frame. The 16 and 28 were built off the 20 gauge frame.

Ted, I have a pile of the old TM 16's as well. Don't shoot as much waterfowl as I used to...sold off my 12 gauge TM. But I'll be happy to use the 16 gauge stuff.

James

Thank you for that, treblig. I disremembered; its the very reason why those guns are so lively!

I still shoot dove w/one of them most seasons at least once.

Leaving my post unedited, so your correction makes better sense to anyone coming along and reading the thread. Much appreciate the quick correction too.