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I would add that pass-shooting geese is iffy with any gauge.
JR

Hey King, it happens. I know you made comments about safety and exceptions, but when does Joe average get to hunt. Only after one has a finished retriever, nice boat, dedicated guns and exclusive hunting grounds? I've seen easily retrievable game on private property or on a closed wildlife area that would be hugely irresponsible for a legal hunter to attempt to retrieve, ethics aside. Doesn't mean we can't give it our best try.

Absolutely, craig. I felt snobbish to express myself as I did but it's part of me. I posted several times over the years, if I were king I wouldn't permit waterfowling without a dog. There's too much pursuing without respect for wild creatures. I've always responded to buddies' phone calls to bring the dog to "I know where it is but it isn't there." Not as a favour but a duty, pleased to do it.

There was enormous blowback here years ago when I said I had hunted in season with commercial market hunters and poachers who had a higher standard than most when it came to retrieving birds. They would never leave a wounded bird even if it meant putting off the skiff, spending the best gunning of the morning to get it, sometimes stripping off naked to make the retrieve.

These men were recognized as "best gunners" on our Eastern Shore. It was my privilege to deliver the eulogy for one of them, a neighbour. I mentioned the above because in totality of their existence---$2-a-pair for ducks in a fishing village of subsistence living, an orange for Christmas, bare feet to school in summer and gumboots in winter---they found an ethical balance.

Your point is a good one, craig. It's just that I'm disappointed in what I see of legal hunting today.

Truer words never said.

Density of the pattern at greater distances. And few have enough discipline to not shoot when everyone with a 12 gauge is shooting.

Testing of a 16 gauge showed that it will print a denser pattern at 40 yards then a 20 gauge 3 inch at 30 yards. They're not even in the same league as a 12 gauge at distances beyond.

"Testing of a 16 gauge showed that it will print a denser pattern at 40 yards then a 20 gauge 3 inch at 30 yards. They're not even in the same league as a 12 gauge at distances beyond."

You're not providing enough information to make your statement quantifiable.
The same charge with the same size pellets at the same velocity, using the same type hull, wad, primer and powder is theoretically the same whether from a 20, 16 or 12. Pattern may vary as we all know each gun has its own peculiarities.

What testing and by who do you refer to?

My readings in Jones lead me to concur with Tamid in that there are more variables to be accounted for the statement to be considered, must less validated. Shot hardness, velocity, weight of charge, wads, ......... Even if all variables are made even the 2D pattern is far closer than the ten yard difference you note.

Given the same size of shot & charge weight pattern density will be determined by three things. First is pattern percentage. 2nd is pattern distribution. Third is o9f course range. The first is obvious, a gun with an 80% pattern will have more density than one giving a 50% pattern. The 2nd is core thickening, two guns may have the same number of shot in the 30" circle, but one of them due to a higher core thickening may have more in a 20" circle. This gun would have higher density, thus a bit longer range, on a "Centered" shot, but a bit less on a fring hit. All patterns of course get thinner as the range increases. Nuff said on that. First goose I ever killed was a little Blue with a 3" 20ga shooting 1�oz #4. 2nd was a Canada killed with a 3�" 10 ga firing 2oz of #2, both in lead days.
If either of these could have been called "Irresponsible" it would have been the Canada with the Big Ten. It was a pass shooting situation, my first attempt at it, so I was not truly Proficient on such shots, probably pure Dumb Luck that I hit it. When we dressed there were two shot holes found, one in the wing tip which would not have even slowed it down, the other centered its chest & killed it in air, it just hit the ground & bounced, not a flop.

Why limit the 12 gauge in that way? OK, throw the same exact charge the 12 gauge will through a denser pattern easily over the 20 and 16 gauges, but it doesn't have to as it can throw a far bigger charge.

I'm waiting for someone, anyone to enter their 20 gauge against the 12 gauges in trap. How come we never hear of that?

treblig, you are changing the argument. The issue is DISTANCE ...... DISTANCE. Nobody is saying the sub gauges can compete with the 12 toe to toe, just that they can do the job at lesser distances. You said it was "irresponsible" to use a sub gauge on waterfowl. Hey, there is nothing magic about the number 12.

SRH