doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Daly Modells 43/53/55/60 - 401/402/403/404

Here's a question for those following along: anyone agree that the proper colour of the pattern welded tubes in the 1st series is Brown?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Odd that the initials, JW, of the mechanic who was the tubeset knitter is on the underside of the right pattern welded tube. Off the cuff, I'd guess Julius Werner of Suhl and less probability to Julius Wolf of Z-M. Some wild math w/ a few benchmarks would narrow the date to circa 1879 but for now that is truly suspect. Also, another wild calculation is that the Lindner quality seal of Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown was implemented on examples between 1000 & 1125????

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So far, I believe 1332 is the first example of the Crown mark. Unless I've missed something.

Tough call on the color. It's reasonable to think all guns have converted to brown by this time. Given the guns were made for America, to me, black is more probable.

You'd think 322 and 380 were second series guns, post 1892. That is, if the serial numbers restarted for the hammer guns as well. If crosspin location relates to serial number, both guns should have pins to the rear of the action.

It looks like 1670 was basically a Field Grade gun. Unadorned by engraving and having Twist tubes.

Regards
Ken

Looks like the transition from Crown to HAL was around 500 into the 2nd series. I still hold that the pattern welded tubes in the 1st Lindner series were brown & the 2nd Lindner series, or post 500 or greater, were black.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Are you referring to 500 after the serial numbers restarted post 1892?

To me, the Julia auction picture of 1332 looks like Black & White.

So far, the first mark appears to go from 1332-3744 in the first Lindner serial number sequencing, continuing after 1892 proof law change and reset of numbers, to Raimey's assertion of change to HAL mark at around #500 during the second Lindner serial number sequence.


DocDrew, when you see this, what is your opinion on the coloring?

Regards
Ken

Appears to be a dark image w/ shading? But most, if not all, of the early Lindner & Sauer pattern welded tubes in a state of high condition are a lovely plum/brown colour and I just don't think them to be refinished. How would it be possible to over time transform from a black steady state to a brown steady state?



Yeah, from the Charles Daly muzzle-loaders thru the 1st series being plum & somewhere during the change, from there forward black to pair w/ the black new fangled fluid steel steady state colour.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It's because Black rust is unstable, and subject to oxidation, turning to the more stable Brown form. Once original lacquer is rubbed off over time, this occurs. The lacquer would have to have been periodically renewed to prevent this. Very rare in the vast majority of cases. Even on guns with remaining lacquer on the Action rarely have any remaining on the tubes. On unprotected barrel segments hanging in my shop, they turn noticeably browner after only a matter of months.

Regards
Ken

T. Kilby

"I'm going to show a couple of pictures of my Daly and maybe this will help explain what Eightbore is referring to when he says "etched". The first picture is the original barrels to my gun and they are "etched". By that I mean they have a very definite texture to them. They are not smooth. BTW, these barrels are in original finish, they have not been redone.


The second set of barrels are what is called "Manufacture Extra". This nomeclature is from the company catalog of (forgive the missing accent marks) Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu. Portions of this catalog are printed in Manfred Sachase's book on damascus steel. At the time of manufacture it appears that these barrrels were 5 times more expensive that the cheapest barrels from this company. This set of barrels have been redone in the classic black & white."


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66563&Searchpage=1&Main=6307&Words=Sachase%27s&Search=true#Post66563

So ever would the area of the unexposed lower rib transform over time? Then how would the ones that are currently black withstand the test of time?

Puglisi Guns has a hammer Daly in the 11xx range if anyone knows them well enough to ring them to see if it wears the Crown over Crossed Sidearms?

http://puglisiguns.cloudapp.net/inventory/9811

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
this gun has both H.A.L. and the crown with crossed pistols.


Hammerless Guns
#245. 12 ga. Daly Diamond Grade, Deeley and Edge forend, pistols and crown, also H.A.L. 538 or 588 or similar

Which one Mr. Hallquist is a transition example? Photobucket is horrid today & appears to have been hacked or used as a thru-put. Anyway, I will get the image of the Lefever sidelever flats w/ the serial nummer, encircled HAL on the bottom of the aft lug & Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown up as soon as possible.....


Finally.... Lindner Nr. 1816, RS initials & encircled HAL

Cheers,

Raimey
rse