doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Kent Bismuth and Tungsten Pressures

The old lead loads killed ducks and geese just fine without this massive loading creating all this chamber pressure. All I'm saying is create another line for the tungsten that replicates these older lead shells because there are a whole lot of guys out there with not only older doubles but also the older pump guns who would like to do some hunting.

Great to see you posting Dr. Hause!!! Always great information.

treblig,

I'm not sure you know just how high the pressures were on the "old lead loads".

SRH

They were that high??? I guess I didn't know.

Can we dig up the chamber pressures these 1922/1923 loads were generating??

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer "Super-X The Long Range Load" by Capt. Chas. Askins, the 12g. duck load is described as 1 1/4 oz. with 38 1/2 grains or 3 1/2 dram DuPont Oval with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps and a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or 11,480 psi; just below the current SAAMI 12g maximum of 11,500 psi.

From �Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics� by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20.
The original 1922 Western Cartridge Co. 12g �Super-X Field� (loaded with DuPont Oval), and 1923 Peters Cartridge Co. �High Velocity�, United States Cartridge �Ajax Heavies Long-Range�, and Remington Kleanbore �Nitro Express Extra Long Range� loads were all 2 3/4�, 1 1/4 oz., 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1330 fps).

Dram Eq. is listed as 3 but has to be 3 3/4 compared to other pressure graphs.
Charge was 1 1/4 oz. Pressure is expressed in Long Tons.



Using the estimated Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch) (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI, TSI X 2240 = PSI.

"Ballistite" Dense maximum pressure at 1� was 4.9 Long Tons = 15,344 psi
"Schultze" at 1 3/4� was 4.5 Long Tons = 14,000 psi
DuPont Bulk at 1 2/3� was 4.1 Long Tons = 12,656 psi
FFFg at 1 1/2� was 3.8 Long Tons = 11,648 psi
Oval at 2� was 3.5 Long Tons = 10,640 psi

A DuPont loading manual from the 1960s listed DuPont Bulk:
3 1/2 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot at 10,000 psi + 10-14% by modern piezo transducers
3 1/5 (3.20) Dr. Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot at 9,900 psi

In the 1928 edition of "Smokeless Shotgun Powders", Coxe reported 3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. loads:
DuPont Bulk smokeless powder - 11,700 psi by LUP
Schultze Bulk smokeless powder - 11,800 psi
28 grains of Ballistite - 12,600 psi
40 grains of DuPont Oval Progressive Burning powder - 9,400 psi

I have no data for Western's 3 inch 'Record' with 1 3/8 oz. of shot released in 1924; U.S. Cartridge Co. 'Climax Heavies' was introduced in 1927.

Basically equaling or exceeding Kent's TM loads of today. Interesting.

A large diet of heavy loads can cause any stock to fail long term. From a safety stand point I think that we all mostly agree a Sterlingworth and NID are very much capable of handling a load in the 9,500-10,000 psi. The action is strong and the barrels are robust. It is the wood that might be in question and unless you are looking to shoot huge numbers of heavy shells it should stand up to moderate use. And if the stock cracks there are thousands of Sterlingworths and NIDs to take their place. We are talking about a basic, heavy duty, American field grade gun not a light weight British gun meant to shoot one ounce loads. So enjoy it and put it to work.

Evidently.

SRH

Granted this is a double gun forum but there are plenty of old pumps and autoloaders approaching or exceeding that century mark also.

If I were to buy an old double for waterfowl then why not restock it in plain jane walnut.

That would be your dedicated waterfowl gun or whatever.