doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "Surface Rust"

I am looking at a Field Grade LC Smith, 1929 vintage. It seems pretty solid mechanically with no defects that I can find. I'm no expert but I'd put the case colors at 80% maybe more. The problem is that there are quite a few spots of what I call surface rust. On a blued surface I've removed such spots successfully with Break Free CLP and bronze wool without damaging the bluing. I know that case colors are much more delicate. Does anyone have any experience removing such spots? Iwas thinking maybe Ren wax on bronze wool??? I'm not trying for perfection just a clean up. Any ides/suggestions would be appreciated.

Phil

I'm sure you know not to use something too abrasive. That said simpliest way to remove surface rust prolly is a drop of oil and fine steel wool. Never used bronze........guess it be alright.
Good luck with it!

After removed, I'd clean and use a drop of tru oil on the Case color.

I'd try WD-40 and 0000 steel wool. I'm surprised bronze wool didn't leave some brassy color on the metal, but your experience didn't show that. I can't imagine why Ren-Wax would remove rust. It would prevent it, but is not a remover of anything, that I know of.

an ultra sonic cleaner does wonders.
Steve

Philbert,
I think you've got the right approach. A fine Bronze Brush or Bronze Wool is softer than a blued finish and is always better than Steel Wool which will remove bluing. Case Color is also a fragile surface, so again stay away from steel wool. I'd brush the rust spots very lightly with Bronze Wool soaked in Breakfree or a fine gun oil.

I have heard of using Hoppe's 9 on surface rust. Let it soak in before you remove it. Also Kroil works great on rust.

Use some Hoppe's 9 or some light gun oil, soak the area with a drop or two, take a utility single edge razor blade and shave the rust off, a little at a time. Rust is softer than steel, and you will feel the blade as it scrapes through the rust and contacts the case hardened receiver metal. You will not mar the steel or case finish if you keep the angle shallow and feel the rust. Just like the skin on your cheek. If the rust is more than a couple of thousandths thick, you will need to re-oil it and shave it again until gone. You will have fine dark pits in the remaining steel, but not as bad as the surface rust. Steel wool of any grade will leave a burnished appearance on the receiver which is a dead give-away. Shaving will not.

Thanks for all the good comments.

Yes, bronze wool can/will leave a goldish cast (I had forgotten about that).

I like Limapapa's suggestion of "shaving" the rust off.

I've heard that Break Free, etc could remove case colors so I was thinking about using BLO or Tru Oil as a lubricant.

Any thoughts?

I've used the edge of copper 'wheat' pennies and Klean Bore Formulae 3 to remove surface rust from blued surfaces. Any coppper color wipes right off. Rotate the penny's edge as it wears. The penny is softer than the blue finish, so it does not/will not mar. Keep the surface wet when doing the rubbing. You can safely use some pressure, but no need to go overboard, rather keep a fresh edge forward.

I have not had occasion to use the technique on a case colored finish.

NO WD-40 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like the Vermouth in a good Martini, WD-40 should be kept in a locked closet when a gun is in the room.
The reason for using oil when removing (using steel wool, bronze wool or a penny as the tool) corrosion is to "float" off the particles. The oxides are harder than the "tool" and the oil prevents scratching.
I like to use an old brass shell casing. It is rounded enough to allow only a small surface to meet the steel of the part. The smallest area possible should be eroded.
Best,
John

Steve, I have an old ultrasonic cleaner from a jewelry store that I just fixed and will be using for the first time to clean an 1885 High Wall action. What do you use for liquid?


Thanks, Rob

WD 40 won't hurt blueing or case colors! It is a very good rust preventive that builds a protective film. It is a very poor lube and the film it builds to prevent rust gums things up on the inside.
bill

"And it soaks into wood and it gums up moving parts, and once it gums, you darn near can't get it off".

I'm sorry but that WD-40 crap has hurt more guns than the law should allow. They should be required to put warning labels on that junk.

I start slow and if need be, get a little more agressive with rust removal. Start with a cotton washcloth and CLP oil, Next I go to a peiece of oak tan leather, with oil. If this does not get it, then no matter what you use next it's going to show pitting.

I love WD40. As much for the internet battles it inspires as the utility it has when used as intended.

For ultrasound, I use plain, HOT water and a bit of detergent dishwashing soap will work. Yes there are better things but these will probably work well.

There is a need to get the dissolved gasses out of solution. Heat does that, but so does the initial 20 minutes of running the ultra sound.

I'm just learning to use mine (mostly for cleaning brass).

There are some good instructions and hints about using these on the web - I wish I had better marked the one I read last. But do a little searching for suggestions.

Brent

I have always used a pencil eraser to remove small amounts of surface rust and found it to be pretty effective. I have never tried it on something that was case colored.

Use a bit of engine oil with fine wire wool, you dont need anything other than that if the rust is still there get the barrels refinished. Also get some engine oil and heat it gently add a spoon of vasaline and melt this in, keep warming it untill it has mixed together then leave it to cool, coat this on your barrels and then wipe off it will leave a protective sheen on the surface, better than wd 40 or anything else.

I had this really dumb friend who bought and used WD 40 by the gallon, his name was Oscar Gaddy. By the way he used a flat ruby stone to rub rust spots on case hardening. It was originally George Flame's trick, another dumb WD 40 user.
bill

Lots more interesting suggestions. Thank you all. My goal is to pick up the gun tomorrow if all goes well. If I get it I'll let you all know how it comes out.

Phil

For an ultrasonic cleaner solution, I have used simple green with some ammonia for general clean-up.

If you are trying to remove rust, chlorinated solvents are used for automobile parts, but they are really nasty so watch the fumes and be careful.

You anti-WD-40 paranoids are full of ap-cray! It's not magic but it's not the instant gumming monster you've received in your talking points bulletin, either. It's a pretty good bore cleaner, an excellent water displacer(WD, get it?), a good rust preventative, but a poor lubricant(too thin). Spraying it into a filthy repeater's trigger mechanism will temporarily slick it up. After the magic goes away, the resulting gum is not the fault of WD-40, it's YOUR fault, because you didn't clean the old dirt out of the mechanism, in the first place. I've used it successfully for more than 50 years, knowing it's limitations and its intended purpose. Have you even tried it or are you just repeating what some self-proclaimed "gunsmith" told you?

Who is George Flame?
I recently acquired a Parker DH out of the Illinois area and was told that George Flame, a running mate of Oscar Gaddy, refinished the stock.I had never heard the name before.

-Weston

Your right Jim Legg, I should not gripe about WD-40. The good Lord knows it put lots of food on my families table.

As a gunsmith with a young family, before I knew that it was good for me that customers abused their guns and made me money.

I would get upset at them for bring in their Autoloading shot guns that they had "sprayed down and put away" after the last hunting season. Now they went to get ready for a little duck shooting and found they could no longer open the action.

The worst of these was always the Browning A-5's and the Remington clones of the A-5.

Nor should I have felt bad about the tang areas of rifle stocks that went soft from the WD soaks.

Heck, I thought I was the only one on the planet that hated the stuff, cause when I would tell the customers were there problems came from, they would look at me with the expression on their faces of blasphemy had been shouted in their presents!

Heck I still get that reaction today.

There are two products in this world that I know to be the most overrated and both of them have banana oil in them. Hoppe #9 and WD-40.(Could the love affair have anything to do with that?)

This is the first time in my life I found anybody that did not think the sun rose and shined on WD-40!

I've wondered for years about the continued love affair the public has for the stuff, but when I was a kid no household would be without "3 in one oil", either.

50 years ago I thought that WD-40 was the best thing to come down the pike. 40 years ago, I knew better!

Dang Al jist how old a feller are yOu ?

Does it really have Banana Oil in it ? If it does that could explain it.

"I would get upset at them for bring in their Autoloading shot guns that they had "sprayed down and put away" after the last hunting season. Now they went to get ready for a little duck shooting and found they could no longer open the action.

The worst of these was always the Browning A-5's and the Remington clones of the A-5.

Nor should I have felt bad about the tang areas of rifle stocks that went soft from the WD soaks."

Well, Big,
It's kind of funny that you say essentially the same thing I said but come up with a completely different conclusion. "Sprayed down and put away" is exactly what I said people should not do with their trigger mechanisms. Trigger mechanisms should be thoroughly cleaned with a "gun scrubber" type of solvent, blown dry and lightly lubed with a good gun oil. "Spraying down" a dirty mechanism with WD-40 or anything similar and leaving it that way is an invitation to gumminess. It's not the WD-40 or any other "gunsmith-in-a-can" that caused the gumminess, it's the fact that the mechanism was never cleaned in the first place.
Your "tang areas of rifle stocks that went soft from the WD soaks." are not anything that I, or anyone else recommends.

Banana Oil??? You've got to be joking! The contents of WD-40 are available on the Internet, on the chemical information site. No mention of banana oil, that I recall.

Go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40 if you really want to know anything about it. Or don't, if you prefer to wallow in old wives' tails and hearsay.

I completely agree with Jim's assessment of WD-40. I have used the stuff by the gallons over the years for two specific things. Help loosening rusted fasteners on farm equipment, and moisture displacement in the barrels of muzzleloaders immediately after cleaning the bores. I have since dispensed with the use of it on rusty fasteners as I have found something much better called ZepPreserve. But it is still as good as anything out there for moisture displacement.

When cleaning m/l barrels water or some form of water "agent" is almost always used. After graduating from the old hot water method I tried many concoctions, all of which worked pretty well. I have for the last ten years or so used a mixture of alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap and hydrogen peroxide, in equal parts. It must be kept in an opaque container such as the peroxide bottle, but is super. After drying patches WD-40 is used to remove any trace of moisture. Then it is removed with dry patches and RIG is applied to the bore for rust preventative. Never have had any rust to appear after this treatment, even when the gun sat for years.

As Jim tried to explain, WD-40's bad rep has come because of it's misuse. It certainly has gummed up the insides of many an auto, but unnecessarily.

Thank you, Stan.
After and during some of these silly arguments in the past, I have put WD-40 in the freezer. It did NOT turn into something like lard, instead it stayed liquid. I have stored in an open container for months. It did NOT turn to gum. I have a Thompson Center Renegade lock in my shop that was sprayed with WD-40 on 3-22-2001. It is not in any way gummy. Even the fly is still free to wiggle. I sprayed it again today, 7-1-2007. I have used it exclusively after cleaning the bores and locks of ML shotguns and rifles for many years to replace any water left after cleaning with soap water and left the bores coated with it as a rust preventative. I have never had any rust show up in the bores.
As I said, I do not depend on it as a lubricant in the locks. Good oil and greases in the appropriate places is better. However, what WD that was left in the locks has NEVER gummed up. That's my experience. WD-40 PP's(Paranoia Parrots) might do well to do some of their own experiments.

Stoddard solvents are varsols. WD- 40 is almost worthless as a lubricant unles one used it like marvel mystery oil in your gas tank. It is ehpemeral as a lubricant, It does penetrate and evaporate but there are much better penetrating oils. The real problem with it is that folks have been lead to think that it is a lubricant which will last for more than a few days. It may displace water but I don't use it and I don't have problems with my methods David

They sure don't say on Wikipedia do they, ask the manufacture what gives it the nice smell that makes fishermen want to spray it on their bait. Not long ago, they were talking about it on the History Chanel "Modern Marvels" and the Manufacture said there is added scents.

You want to get rid of moisture, use 91% Alcohol, available in any drug store for less than a buck a pint.

I do not lube a bore after cleaning, I always leave dry, until I'm reading the gun to shoot again.

BA, if you do that down heah' with even a squeaky clean m/l barrel that leaves a patch pure white, you won't HAVE a decent bore to shoot when you decide to shoot again. Glad the weather conditions where you are allow that, must be nice.

Stan

The last thing in this world I want to do is coat a clean bore wit anything that covers the bore, anywhere in this world.

The U.S. Gov did this for years but no longer anyway not since the late 1950's. The reason is the vapor phase that all metal used in firearms under goes.

Even for long term storage they have no coatings on the firearms, only coverings and dry silica treated cardboard tube in the bore. Sealed in plastic.

Ever wonder why all the WW1, WW2 bores that were packed with cosmoline are so dark?

Kind of sounds like the only gun work Big Al ever did was cleaning gummy WD-40 out of "all" those gummy guns. I never heard anyone else recommend against running a lightly oiled patch down a totally clean bore, shotgun or rifle for rust prevention. Be careful about what "professional" advice you accept.

I tried to remove some of the speckling tonight from the case colors but stopped. Fine brass wool with Break Free CLP removed color quickly. Even CLP on a patch lightens colors. I think I'll just wax the reciever good and often to prevent the speckling from getting any worse.

Phil

That's probably the best idea. Good luck with it.