doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Johann Kalezky

Raimey,
In your call, you said the cartridge was an "A"base(MB) one. The photos above are 450 base. The cases I advised for the cartridge you described, will not work with 450 base cartridges. BTY, I don't consider Wax chamber casts reliable for taking measurements, only for general size/shape.
Mike

Yeah, Ford I had just dropped a inverted 45-70 into the recess and guessed it to be an A base.

@ 0.25" - 0.525" Diameter
@ 0.50" - 0.500" "
@ 0.75" - 0.500" "
@ 1.00" - 0.480" "

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Felix gave some numbers here:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=459762#Post459762
In 1900, the Kalezky shop sent 19 guns to the Vienna proofhouse, 16 of these were shotguns.

That wax cast resembles a 11,5x65R or.450 Express, german form (rim diameter ca. 15.5 mm, head diam. 13.78 mm, quickly tapering, rim thickness ca. 1.06 mm, measurement taken off a GR / Roth case).
But this chamber apparently wants a much thicker rim.
Since you had a .45-70 cartridge at hand - would that chamber?

fuhrmann

Many thanks fuhrmann & yes the short chambered 0.45-70 would chamber & fire and there was a separation of say 3" on a target @ 30m, according to the custodian of the Kalezky. So your dimension of 1.06mm would be tolerable.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
By your dimensions above, it can't be a 450 based cartridge(.544" case head), so it is likely an MB based cartridge(.516" case head- chamber would be larger). You should be able to use Starline 45-90 or longer Win/Sharps 45 cal cases, by moving the rim forward to approximate the MB.
Mike.

Ford, you are correct and the preliminary / original plan was to use 45-90 cases. But I'm not sold either way on the case. Diameter is something close to 0.6".

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Did you mean 0.616"?

Cheers,

Riamey
rse

Measured some cartridges - all in mm:

Cartridge - rim diam. - base diam. - rim thickness
11.5x65R /.450 Exp. - 15.50 - 13.78 - 1.06
11.15x60R Mauser - 14.88 - 13.06 - > 2
.45-70 - 15.15 - 12.74 - 1.76

I would not expect any original cartridge with Mauser base:
a) base diameter too narrow
b) most of these were bottle-necked

My guess still is this was a .450 Express that at some time was made to fit .45-70 cartridges - clever Bubba solution...
Comparing cartridges, only the recess for the rim needs to be cut deeper - maybe a .45-70 reamer wasn't even needed.
A fired .45-70 case should tell the story.

I can't think of any other cartridge that might fit, but I hope to get hold of a pre WWI G. Roth catalog later this week, maybe there are more suggestions.

fuhrmann

Base could easily be 15.5mm w/ the variation in the wax. Poor notes, but it looks as if I mic-ed the base hole in the tubeset @ 0.6"??

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
No, I meant .516" head diameter. The largest diameter you measured was .525", and the chamber must be larger than the cartridge. You can't fit a .544" 450 head cartridge into a .525" hole. When I say "head diameter", don't get it confused with rim diameter( for MB base rim is .585", but .595" fits most rim recesses).
fuhrmann,
MB cartridges were available in calibers larger than 11.15, and longer than 60mm.
Mike