doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How does the game warden check for lead. Bismuth

So, if a game warden does not need your consent to search your vehicle if he has probable cause, and he asks for permission, isn't that the equivalent of saying to you "I do not have probable cause, but I just want to see if you're gullible enough to go along, and maybe I'll find something illegal"?

SRH

No, it has to do with the defense of the search in court. Nothing is better (from the game warden's pov) than consent. Consent makes a search solid and one that can't be challenged in court. The only issue then being if the consent was given legally and willingly.

If he has Probable Cause, he can search without a warrant (usually) due to "exigent circumstances." Which means he couldn't get a warrant before you moved the vehicle. Same as looking for drugs, but the searching officer MUST have articulateable probable cause. Such as he sees contraband in your vehicle or too many ducks in your boat.

A warrantless search (without consent) is the most difficult to defend. But if the officer knows what he's doing and goes by the law, such a search will pass. Refusal to permit a consent search cannot add to probable cause...exercise of a right can't add to a motive for taking a right away.

As I said before, cops and I assume game wardens don't go about searching cars with or without consent randomly. Takes time, adds to paperwork, and just isn't generally done without some reason. If something is found on an warrantless search without consent, that reason will be tested in court. And it better be good.

There are numerous books written on Search and Seizure, and obviously the cans and can'ts cannot be explained by a few posts or by me, who isn't a lawyer.

Okay, now the officer tells you to step away from your vehicle, that he has probable cause to search it, and intends to. Do you have the right to know what that probable cause is? Can he legally proceed to search without telling you what his probable cause is?

SRH

Yes, he must only explain his PC only to the court when under oath who will then explain it to you, hopefully through your attorney.

I have been hunting over five decades. Times have changed and Game Wardens with them. When I lived in MD I was checked over a hundred times with three citations, no convictions. To be fair only one was BS and the others were marginal. It got so bad that I changed counties I hunted in for most of one season. It gets old being checked two or three times a day while hunting. I have no personal problems with Wardens or searches these days. Like every other group there are great guys and AHoles in every group.

In fact I hunted with a game warden for five years until he was forced to stop hunting. A single violation would have cost him his job and at least one person who he had arrested did in fact bait fields we hunted. They even called in the Federal wardens on us once. We had found the bait and he was posting the filed for bait when they drove up. It was funny to watch the turf war between the state and federal guys.

Since I moved to the mid west I have been checked perhaps three times total. Still no citations and no convictions. My son a I were Checked in Ohio Dove hunting and it took two minutes flat with zero issues. I did explain to my son that being totally legal makes any contact with a Police officer or Game Warden a cake walk.

Because of the mobility of cars, the rules for searching vehicles are less restrictive than searching a residence. That doesn't mean anything goes. There are times when a search warrant is required and probable cause must exist for the issuance of probable cause. Roadside stops create issues which don't necessarily mean the right ot search, warrantless, exists in all cases. However, if the driver or car occupant can be arrested, a search incident to arrest may exist. For instance, DUI. If another licensed person is at the scene, typically a non-intoxicated passenger, the car can be driven away without a search if the car is in safe, drivable condition. A lone driver dui may justify a warrantless Inventory search where the car is to be towed to a holding compound. Inventory searches are permissible to forestall allegatrons of valuable items being stolen from the car while in police custody. Warrantless searches of a vehicle are permissble when the officer has probable cause to believe that a crime was committed by an occupant or drlver. For instance, a speeding car is stopped. A cloud of sweet smelling smoke engulfs the officer when a window is rolled down. The officer is familiar with the smell of marijuana. He can then search the car for marijuana and if he finds any marijuana or over the limit ducks, any found contraband is admissible evidence.
A judge gets to determine the credibilty of the reason for arrest, however. Another justifiable search: Game Warden sees more ducks fall out of the sky than a limit or hears an unplugged gun. He sees the party go to a vehicle and put something in the trunk. No ducks are visible at the car. He has probable cause to search the car because he has probable cause to believe there was a game violation. If you are hunting, as Gene has said, a game warden is permitted to ask for and check your license and gun. The worse thing one can do in some jurisdictions is to be caught lying about a material fact to a leo acting in the performance of his duties. This sometimes can be a felony under both Federal and some state laws. Lying to cover up what would be a misdemeanor offense game violation can in some cases imperil your 2nd amendment right to have a gun.

Thanks for those explanations. If I am ever subject to search I intend to be innocent of wrongdoing, and just wanted to clearly understand my constitutional rights in these cases. Just because I have never been subjected to an overbearing GW doesn't mean I never will.

I guess my record of never having been checked while duck hunting really is pretty amazing, seeing as how I have hunted ducks in several states for the last 18-20 years (hope to add TN to that list Tues. morning).

SRH

Genalang, I've never hunted in Georgia and can't claim know what it's like to deal with Law Enforcement of any type there, but I can tell you, for a fact, that the Md DNR is an adversarial entity to hunters.

Mergus

I have gotten one warning ticket in Georgia and I have hunted for 65 years or so. Bobby

The thread has been a revelation to me. It's one thing to know parts of the law and another knowing all of it in these circumstances. Thank god for our lawyers.