doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How does the game warden check for lead. Bismuth

In reading the various stories of people's less than satisfactory run ins with wardens, I am reminded of all the various encounters I have had with them also.

Very few of them have been good.

I grew up on the Eastern Shore of Md and I've never had a friendly encounter with a GW or for that matter a Md Marine Police. Every encounter starts off with a presumption of guilt. They "know" you've done something, they just haven't figured out what yet...Is there some clause in the universal GW hand book that says they have to treat everybody they deal with with utter suspicion?

A couple of years ago, after a day of hunting off the coast of Maine for sea duck, we were met at the dock by a Maine GW. We were just getting the trailer backed into the water when he came running down to the water's edge and made a quick lap of the exterior of the boat while looking in and studying everything that could be seen with the naked eye. Upon seeing our boxes of Hevi Shot, he pronounced us to be "rich hunters as those were expensive shells". He also remarked on the hand carved decoys as they must have been expensive also? (all of which were carved by me, not bought)

Here in Vt, I have to admit my experiences with wardens have been a little bit better as to demeanor, but the presumption of guilt is still there.

Serious question for those of you with legal experience, is there any other section of US law, state or Federal that holds that the citizen is presumed guilty until proven otherwise?

Mergus

There is no presumption of guilt except in your mind. I see nothing wrong with what the MD game warden did, he didn't violate any of your rights by looking at what was in plain view in your boat. Same with a traffic stop; nothing wrong with the cop looking inside your car at what's in plain view.

You were presumed innocent, which is why he didn't toss your boat. Had he seen anything untoward, then the presumption of wrong doing begins.

See nothing wrong with obeying game laws and enforcing these laws. If you're going to hunt, you need to be familiar with the laws...same with speeding or violating traffic laws. Nor do I see a LEO seeking approval for enforcing laws and regulations. I was a LEO for 33 years and never asked permission to enforce laws.

The presumption of innocence applies only to the Courts. LEO's aren't part of the judicial system. They are entitled to presume someone guilty. Otherwise, there'd be no arrest. Gil

I carry bismuth reloads in my pockets to keep them warm during duck hunting. If an officer had doubt of what's in those shells, I'd offer one with permission to open it and see for himself; no big deal. (I've never met a fish warden or game officer other than socially.)

I have developed a great intolerance to game wardens. I have worked as a professional guide for many years and by definition this occupation is always guilty. Too many stories to tell and some with very upsetting results. But I have learned a lot about search and sesure when I'm stopped I lock all doors and I'if asked to open them hand the warden the keys That stops about 90% of the illegal searches

opening day we were checked for licence and steel shot shells.in california the warden has a high tech gizmo,he reads the shell, marked steel!who would have thought it.King you have to be hunting to run into a warden,hanging out in the basement wont attract most of them.

I was stopped on opening day by a Kansas two game warden team just as I was loading up to go home. They asked to see my gun, shells, and license. They noted the Bismuth staamps on my hulls and really liked my SLE.

They were professional and really nice, offering some advice on possible locations for the next day.

Over the years I have never had a bad encounter with game wardens, nor I have I with police for that matter, though I know others have not been as lucky.

The game warden may not know it and you do not know it, but handing him the keys is consent to search.

Interesting. Not sure if the law reads that way in Canada. I will check into that

If you tell a game warden you don't consent to a search and he threatens to break a window to gain entry and then you can hand him the keys but make it clear that you don't consent and the search is at his peril over your objection, handing the keys in that situation can't be construed as a valid consent. I'd never consent to a search of house, car or "what's in the pocket." A LEO can pat down for weapons for officer safety, but beyond that, no cigar unless you are actually under arrest. Of course there have been dishonest LEO's who will say there was a consent whether there was one or not. Unless there's a video or non-interested credible witness, I can predict who the judge is going to believe in a suppresion hearing in which there is no right to a jury.