doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lead shot increasingly under fire

Brent, unfortunately the Lead cannot tell the difference between a wetland and land that get wet with water.

"To all"

You know there is no one here on this thread thats posted, that I do not respect. So is it possible to reframe from the personnel slurs?

Because your opinion and mine does differ, does that mean I should hold you in any other than high regard?

Can't we as Americans have different views on this subject and not be polite, one to another?

As I was taught as a child, it's better to kill with "Kindness".

As Rodney King put it..."kAin't we alls jist get alOng".

What's the real deal with Bismuth shot...are they or are they not going to make it ?

Dunno yet. They haven't sold the business yet and production has stopped. Fall is right around the corner, you do the math, do you think new production Bismuth will be on the shelves before the season starts? Methinks not....

BTW, this whole argument is becoming moot. The wholesale price of lead is up to $1.20-something per lb. A couple more weeks of this and sporting clays with rock salt will be the only way to go.... Here's the lead commodity link.....

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/lead_historical_large.html

Mike Doerner

I have tons of the stuff, wish I could find somebody to pay a buck a pound for all of it.

Brent - I know that the library and internet contain thousands of articles on lead poisoning. This is the internet, and I just thought since that's what's being discussed on this thread, and you have obviously taken a strong position based on your knowledge of the subject, that you might share the facts that have brought you to your conclusion about death caused by lead ingestion in birds. I come to this website to learn from those who are more knowledgeable than I. It saves me countless hours looking for answers on subjects of interest to me as a shooter and hunter. I assume you have the answers and I am only asking you the courtesy of sharing them.

I do not believe that to be true.
In 1991 through 1995 I was the President of the San Diego Miramar Trap and Skeet Club. We operate on Federal land on the edge of the Miramar Air base. Our club is on the on the flats above the edge of a large gorge or canyon. Our lease was running out and the base was changing from Navy top gun to a Marine base. There was a woman at the Federal EPA who wanted us out in a big way.
The club was required to do an expensive (over 100 grand as I recall) EPA investigation. The issue was leaching of lead into the water table. They checked the hell out of it. On the sides of the canyon, down at the bottom, down stream 100 yards to 1/2 mile. NO lead. NONE. This, despite our zillion tons of lead over many years up on top.
The investigators told me that lead in that form is inert from "leaching" into the enviornment through water action.
We kept the lease. The club is still there and one of the best in the country.
Regards, Craig

P.S. Much as I hate it, I do believe the science is there to show that birds who eat lead die.

Lead has seen a 600% increase in four years. How many of our stocks have done as well? Funny thing is that I bought two pallets of lead several years ago back when it was in the $10-11.00/ bag price range. Figured that my two sons where about to start shooting high volume of skeet or trap targets and might as well buy it while I had the money. My wife of course knew that my mental condition was in steep decline. Most likely because of lead levels.

Brent, Please do not take this wrong, but you need to understand how studies really work. First you need a hypothsis. Then you need to design a means to test the hypothsis and gather data. Then you need a source of funding. He who funds the study gets to almost dictate what the final outcome will be in the study. Write a few hundred proposal for studies and you will find this out. After you get the money you do the study. If your results do not come out as you expect you do not publish if they agree with your hypothsis you submit your study for review. If your study is a valid study it is peer reviewed. If the peer review does not like your results, your hypothsis, how you data was collected or even who funded your study they will not aprove it. Then to get your study published you either have to pay to have it published or alter your results to get it peer approved.

I spent several decades doing this. I know what I am telling you. My wife was an epidemoligist before I sent her to medical school. She can take a set of data and make it tell you anything that you want to hear or tell you how to run it, the study, again to get the "correct" data. Further, for a study to be valid it has to be easily repeated by others who get the same results. Single studies are worse than suspect. Studies that cite only their own pervious studies are bogous. If it is real, others will test and confirm the study.

There are subjects which are absolutley impossible to study these days. Let me give you an example. You will never see a study to see if ethnic genetic make up has any effect on intelegence. This is an absolute untouchable subject to test. Not only can you not get any funding to test it, all governing bodies that review will gut your results in a second. You will never see a valid study to confirm one race is smarter than another. Might be funny if we did the study and found out that Asians were number one. But it will never happen.

A soon to be undesputable subject, or one that has already become one, is global warming and the certain fact that green house gasses are the cause, i.e. the SUVs and man are the problem. If that is so can anyone tell me why the mean tempature of Mars is up just as much as Earths is? Last I looked martians had no suvs. No study to date has taken into account the effects of the Sun and Solar wind. That is until a Swedish study did and their results are very interesting and hard to dismiss. 40 years ago the same global warminging expert were looking at the same data set and warning of global cooling.

When others dispute the effects of lead and you site studies you need to be a little more careful. Those studies were not run by virgins with wide open eyes and no concept of what they might find. More Eagles were killed by DDT than ever were killed by lead shot. In fact that last Eagle I saw on one of my farms was eating a dead Prudue chicken from cleaninng out the chicken house. Please do not site any Eagle killed by dead chicken studies. Uncle Frank would spin in his grave.

BrentD,
Your replies to My posts have proved to me that you have not read and understood them and their content.I have read and understood your posts and enclosures and as I said at the time they are flawed science.You Sir dragged this debate into the gutter by your rude comments to myself and Lowell.I can see no future in trying to debate with a Rude, Ignorant person who refuses to acknowledge facts when they refute their perceived beliefs.End of Debate.

Is the old saying true....about lead putting lead in your pencil ?