doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The borrower had to know......

I agree with you 100%, Dean. Too many folks today do not take responsibility- whether it is the jerk you creams the door of your Stutz-Bearcat at the Vintage and Antique car show, whilst backing up his Studebaker Avanti- and drives off, without a care or concern for the damage done.

But I also think that if I were a gun dealer (never gonna happen, however- I'm not clever enough I guess) and a "person of the streets" asks me for permission to shoot and try out one of the guns I have for sale on my table(s)I would tell him that only with the ammo I have available, and that ammo at his expense- No reloads-- Here's a sad reason why. A friend inherited a nice Ithaca 5e Knick SBT- at an area gun club, years ago, before the sporting clays "boom" hit- he let a 'friend" shoot it at 16 yard rise- the friend was using Federal Champion reloads (paper hulls) and a wad was stuck in the barrel, when he called for his next clay and fired, he barrel bulged right at the end of the wooden forearm, lifting the ventilated rib off the barrel. Thankfully, it did not burst the barrel, but the gun had to have a new barrel and forearm fitted, which the "borrower's" home owners insurance partially paid for- this was maybe in 1978-

I never shoot reloads in my Model 12's for crows or pigeons, and to the possible rapid shooting one can encounter- I will shoot AA reloads in my 12 gauge L.C. Smiths, as I have the old habit of checking the barrels each time I open the gun and get ready to reload the chambers.

Perhaps I am naive, but after 7 pages I don't understand the overwhelming assumptions being made.
The two biggest are that:
this was absolutely preventable ( or said another way "a result of negligence")
and that:
It was instantly and definitely recognized.

When someone posts a grievance issue on the net it is usually safe to assume that private conversations among those involved lead down dead end street, so to speak.
One does not have to use reloads even in uncommon 16ga. Cabela's sells Italian-made 1oz 1100fps loads for $7 per box. Quite honestly if ones gun can't be shot with those than it's time to move on to new firearm and hang current one on the wall.

As I said before no conclusions of significance can be reached because we do not know physical specs of the barrels and type of ammo used that lead to the bulging.

Not our Cabela's here in West MI- maybe the "King Kong" Cabela's store in Dundee- here, you'll find a honest politico sooner than any $7.00/box 16 gauge loads. GM has some Fiocchi 16 1 ounce loads, at $14.99 box/25. RST would be my only choice, were I to slip into the 16 gauge "mantra"-- but then, my 12 bore shotguns would feel slighted, after all, a man can only shoot one of them at a time. So many guns, so little time--alas!!

Maybe he doesn't know the guy's name....?

Steve obviously needed to vent about it - can't say I blame Steve...I blame the shooter. The entire responsibility of situation rests solely on his shoulders, not Steve's. Should he just not allow anybody to try his guns? How would that work out for his 'business model'? Not too well I'm thinking.

What is so hard, or that makes for such a poor business model, about saying to the prospective buyer "Sure, you're welcome to try it a few rounds ... here are some shells. Please only use these."?

SRH

I believe there's just something wrong here. That first line might be considered a basic responsibility.

I believe the higher up the price scale the gun is, the more selective the potential clients. The folks who tried that gun out will likely remember it. What do we do if you're one who tried it, and you're an expert that verify the gun went back in perfect condition. I'm the other guy who doesn't have any witnesses that I know of, but I'm positive that I fired the gun ten times with factory 2 1/2" low pressure target loads. Maybe, I was kind of like the seller and handed it back without specifically checking for those particular bulges.

If I realized the buzz that came up, sure I'd call the seller and chat. What we do know is that if the will is there, the gun is still available for 'looking over'. But, we're left with guessing. I know I would've been highly concerned if I saw that I bulged those barrels using 'approved' shells, no matter how much the seller was fuming.

If the gun slipped past casual inspection after the bulges, maybe the rib laid okay and no cracks showed up in the forearm. Maybe it could be measured if things are a little thin just where the appearance would matter the most, not under the ribs or forearm. I might think we should see a 'ring' bulge.

When permission was given to shoot, merchantability and fitness for purpose were implied.

This is interesting considering all the wise advice given in the various forums and knowledge base about actually shooting damascus barrels.

I find it remarkable that; 1. a dealer would state a damascus gun is 'safe to shoot'. 2. a person would accept that declaration without any further investigation.

Drew has it right. Barrels were stretched beyond elastic limits by pressures excessive for THAT gun.

A gun in that condition should never be offered for sale as a shooter. Dealer is treading in deep water doing that.

Conversely, nobody has any business borrowing a damascus gun to shoot - potential customer or not.

This was fairly close to a catastrophic accident.

All parties involved share blame.

YES we can learn from this.

Why is it none of site experts consider that the borrower may have used home brewed 16 reloads that were loaded way over pressure? It seems many are assuming the gun was modified in some way and Mr. Barnet didn't catch it when doing the techy write up for his web site.

Seems far fetched to me is why I would not think that. But who knows?

We know no real details. Only what the vendor placed on the Internet/Gunsinternational.