doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Is original constriction definition of choke still appropriate?

It's the crabby neighbor's door. He was at work.

What constitutes a "good" pattern and how do you measure it? "Even/uniform" distribution does not happen in patterns, BTW.

DDA

I call a good pattern one I couldn't throw a bird through out to the range I expect to shoot...Geo

So, if the above is good, what is "better?"

Jones found you must shoot not less than 10 patterns per load-gun to obtain statistically reliable data. Any one who hasn't read "Sporting Shotgun Performance" should.

DDA

How dead do you want'em?...Geo

Don, if he's still promoting the idea that there are a lot of single pellet breaks at skeet, I think a lot of people would question the statistical reliability of whatever data supports it.

My idea of a good pattern is one that delivers what I expect at ranges I expect to shoot.

Honest I have a 14 inch round plywood disk with a 2 inch hole centered. 14 inches because my lathe will chuck 14 inches, easy to turn the disk, and its small enough to draw circles on common construction paper.

Run a series of patterns from very close to further than I expect to shoot. 7/8 oz 12 clays load with 7 1/2 have patterned each barrel on my main gun every 10 yards from 10 to 60 yards. Tells me I need a spreader if real close and real long shots better put in a 1 oz load.

2 7/8 10 G guns with 1 1/8 & 1 1/4 skip the close ones and take it out to 70 yards. Sub Gauge stop at 40 yards. Guns I hunt with do the same with larger shot.

Gives you a good idea of what the gun and load will do actual targets . Don't count anything just look at the holes , not hard to judge good from not good enough. If the gun and load won't put a lot of pellets on a 14 inch target it's not going to break clays or kill birds very well.

Agree extensive testing is better but it's a lot of trouble and if you don't test at actual target distances inconclusive .

Boats

I have all the respect in the world for Don, and for his endless striving to try to encourage armchair patterning experts to get more scientific in their evaluations, and discussions of same. It is people like him who help to keep us grounded .

But ........ as much as I agree with Don about evaluating patterns, I have to say something. I don't mean this to be belittling of scientific research and data, in any way, but there is just so much help it can provide you in the effort to raise your shell to bird average. This may sound harsh ..... but, show me a shooter who is obsessed with evaluating patterns and I will show you a so-so clay or game shot. Brister may have been the exception, I never knew him. I have a lot of respect for him, but I've never met anybody like him. I have been friends with many excellent shotgunners, some of whom are among the best in the world at sporting clays and live pigeons. None of them, I mean none, have ever spent any significant time patterning and evaluating patterns. They shoot quality ammunition, quality guns with good chokes, and they SHOOT, a lot. They do not obsess over chokes, patterns or loads. If the combination they are using breaks birds well, and they cannot see any obvious failures, they just keep shooting.

I know from experience that you can overthink shotgunning. As much as I enjoy occasional patterning of new loads, I don't obsess over them. I don't use screw in chokes in my primary comp gun. It has fixed chokes at .020" and .020". I KNOW that I should benefit from good spreaders on very close stuff, but it doesn't work out that way. The more I think about "helping" my shooting with open chokes, spreaders, etc., the worse I shoot. You wanna kill more birds with less shells? SHOOT MORE!!!!! Pattern your gun/load to make sure it is not shooting a terribly patchy pattern, then fugettaboutit, and just shoot more. Patterning is much more useful for visually showing you what the maximum range is at which you should shoot a bird or clay, with a choke/load combination, than it is for determining which load may give you a percentage point or two more breaks, IMO.

Talking about all this is entertaining and helps pass those days and nights when we can't get out and shoot, but for goodness sakes don't think it will make you a better shot. Only shooting will do that. Lots of shooting.

Rant over.

SRH

I've nothing against your experience/intuitive judgement of patterns. But, I'm looking for something we can measure and scale from poor to good. Until we have/use such a measure, discussions such as this, while fun, don't reach any conclusion of particular value. I think it a crying shame more use of the treasure trove of data given us by Jones is not being more utilized.

Again, no offense intended; all good fun.

DDA

I think more in terms of "useful" patterns, and my examples are purely involving hunting chokes. or lack of it. It's OK to grind up clays at 23 yards with a tight choke, but that fat rooster pheasant or ruffed grouse is going to be destroyed if you center it, and you can't always ride them out, especially grouse. No head games with a wide-open choke in that situation, just shoot.