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Joined: Dec 2012
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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*** SEE PHOTOS ADDED BELOW ***

Several years ago I acquired this 12 gauge Belgian shotgun with 7-pin sidelocks. It has double triggers, ejectors, 2-3/4” chambers, and a hidden third fastener. It is a very high quality gun but shows some wear from normal usage. Looks like a Francotte to me. However it is not marked with a maker’s name anywhere on the barrels, frame, sidelocks, or forearm iron. There are an assortment of proof marks on the barrel flats along with the name of the barrel steelmaker which is hard to read but I believe that it reads something close to “Giltinplat Steel N”. The finish is somewhat unusual. The barrels are blued as are most of the frame and the sidelocks. However, the water table, standing breech, and double triggers are case colored. I am guessing that someone reblued the gun over the case coloring but if so how did they protect the water table and standing breech?

The frame is serial numbered “27477”. Each tube carries the serial number “27339” which I assume is the barrelmaker’s number. The bottom rib near the forearm lug is marked “477”.

I have photos in JPEG format but am unable to upload them to this site.

My main interest is to see if anyone can identify the maker or perhaps who the craftsman who made this gun on his own time worked for on his “day” job? Thanks.

Last edited by jdickson397; 04/06/16 07:51 AM.
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j...I don't think you'll get much help without a few detailed pic
franc

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Sidelock
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Originally Posted By: Franc Otte
j...I don't think you'll get much help without a few detailed pic
franc


I am sure you are correct. I can PM Jpeg photos if there is a knowledgeable person who is willing to go to the trouble. Thanks.

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Forward them on to me & I'll gladly post them.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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9 pin sidelock?






Siemens Martin Steel & d datecode. Encircled 8 or infinity forward of the flats?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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It was proofed in 1925. Nice gun in good condition.

Pete

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Very nice gun, 7 pin sidelock, 1926, Siemens Martin Steel. 12 gauge 70mm chambers..
Typical trade made Liege sidelock, in much better than average condition on the outside.
Not a Francotte however.
Best regards,
WC-

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Purdey Nose





Really need an image of the marks forward of the flats to the forend hanger to make a stab @ the mechanics involved.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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Disc-set strikers with retaining screws. Another mark of decent quality.

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Serialized tubeset also. Close number on water-table.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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This is very good quality gun as evidenced by excellent polish on interior surfaces not seen when the gun is fully assembled. An Angliphile will say it is lesser quality because it is not stocked to fences, balls or breasts. Being European I do not share same point of view.

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Just as I suspected it's an Emile Warnant gun...
I just received one which is very similar and just as nice, but in lower condition...#26246 ca 1925.
Best regards,
WC-

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Wild Cattle, why do you think this gun is made by Emile Warnant, all E. Warnant guns have the letters E.W. on the barrel flats and I can't se these letters on the flats or any place else.
Of course I can make a mistake, but then I be glad that you correct me.
Cheers, greetings from Belgium, Marc.

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Sidelock
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Thanks for all the comments and help so far. Can any of you shed some light on Emile Warnant please? Thanks.

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Possibly the E monogram(stylized EW?) on the tubes forward of the flats?

Cheers,

Raimey
rs

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Sidelock
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The initials "EW" are clearly marked on the water table. I have sent a photo of it to ellenbr who has been so generous in posting my photos to this thread. Would love to hear any more information about Emile Warnant. Also, is there a book available about the Belgian guild makers? In English? Thanks.

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Culprit spangled EW on water-table. Quality piece with a set of proper tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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I had seen the EW star in one of the previous pictures.
And the style is very similar to my own gun.
The one I have has chopper lump "Poldi anticorro" barrels, and is stocked to the fences. It also has sidelocks made by Jacquet who was one of the top "platineur" in Belgium at the time.
Emile Warnant was a fairly obscure maker who seems to have been mostly providing guns for retailers.
My gun was retailed by Jules Gervais a Anvers.
He was in business at Rue Lamarck, 99 in Liege from 1911 to 1934.
I think there is one for sale now at Cabelas under his own name.
Best regards,
WC-

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The cabela's gun is gone from their website, actually.

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Nice guns, I also love my Emile Warnant:

http://www.hunting-heritage.com/blog/index.php/2016/04/05/emil-warnant-belgian-boxlock/

Kind Regards,
Gunwolf

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Originally Posted By: jdickson397
The initials "EW" are clearly marked on the water table. I have sent a photo of it to ellenbr who has been so generous in posting my photos to this thread. Would love to hear any more information about Emile Warnant. Also, is there a book available about the Belgian guild makers? In English? Thanks.


http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20warnant%20emile%20gb.htm

There are a few books around, Who's Who of Liege gunmaking. There is also a 3 volume set of select makers. Finally,
I have some info posted at:
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

Pete

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Sidelock
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Originally Posted By: WildCattle
I had seen the EW star in one of the previous pictures.
But the style is very similar to my own gun.
The one I have has chopper lump "Poldi anticorro" barrels, and is stocked to the fences. It also has sidelocks made by Jacquet who was one of the top "platineur" in Belgium at the time.
Emile Warnant was a fairly obscure maker who seems to have been mostly providing guns for retailers.
My gun was retailed by Jules Gervais a Anvers.
He was in business at Rue Lamarck, 99 in Liege from 1911 to 1934.
I think there is one for sale now at Cabelas under his own name.
Best regards,
WC-


WC, Are your locks marked with the lockmaker's name? If so, on the exterior or interior? Thanks.

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Inside.
Yours does not have it.
I'll post a picture when I can.
M-

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Here are a few pictures about my Jules Gervais/Emile Warnant SLE #26246.
The gun has no engraving.







The locks are from Jacquet and used to be gold plated.
The bores are large (18.6mm), but I believe that they came this way from the factory. Wall Thickness is 0.03", so no problem there.
The chokes are substantial. I'll probably open them up.

I hope this helps...

WC-

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WC;
Your proof marks show 18.6 so that should have been the bore diameter at time of proof. Are you going by that mark or have you actually measured them. 18.6 converts to .7323" so this only about .003" over nominal 12ga of .729", definitely not a drastic overbore.


Miller/TN
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They measure .735 which is a tad less than 18.7.
The provisional proof is at 18.4, which is a lot more standard.
I think this was done to lighten up the barrels, which are still on the heavy side.
I see no evidence of honing, so I believe this is intact from factory.
The barrel weight is a tiny bit lower than the proof mark, but my scale could lie.
WC-

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Sort of a side-note, but Poldi did file for protection of a trademark of a Wildmann w/ a club in 1895 in Prag.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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"........advert is und Paul Scholberg Lüttich. It notes that if you have spezial steel needs for sporting weapons, you will be well satisfied to source either Schilling or Scholberg. So, Carl Bittiner was a sourced for Böhler tube steel and I believe was at the same address as Paul Scholberg. V. Chr. Schilling was the only game in town early on for Poldi Antikorro and that is why we seen his initials on Baumgarten's Brenneke with Poldi Antikorro tubeset #280. I think these tubesets were sequential but don't know just how high the number grew. But Paul Scholberg was the source in Liege so if you have a sporting weapon with Poldi Antikorro tube steel proofed in Liege, the probability is very, very high that Paul Scholberg was sourced."

From Below:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=201734&page=2

Seems Bittiner & Scholberg cornered the Liege market for Böhler and Poldi tube steel. These fellas just may have been the source for the bulk of Böhler & Poldi steel tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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It turns out that I have been completely wrong with this.

The mark for Emile Warnant is EW under Crown, while the mark for "Ernest Wilmart" is EW under Star.
So both of those guns were probably made by Ernest Wilmart.
No issue on the gun value, Wilmart turned out great stuff as well.

Check the Littlegun.be site. There is a Wilmart gun that shows the EW star mark.

Happy Turkey day...
WC-

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This forum is amazingly informative. There are so many knowledgeable people here. I have learned a lot reading threads and posts. Great looking gun. Hope you will enjoy shooting it. Happy Thanksgiving to all.
BillK

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