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Interesting, I see Papeman's Reilly has A&D Patent use #8702 and a build date of 1884.

I have a Warrilow box lock I had restored, I had always thought it was from the 1890's. It's A&D # is 7221 so I had better rethink that.

The first one was a WR in May of 1875....


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Bob, take a look at the two lines I posted on Patent use numbers. I was warned by very knowledgeable posters that they are not chronological and cannot be relied on for dating guns.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...8253#Post568253
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...8132#Post568132

The patent was taken out 15 Sep 1875 and would have expired 15 Sep 1889. I doubt that after that date there will be patent use numbers (implying payment of royalties). So your gun is certainly pre - Sep 1889.

I compiled dated guns, built graphs of the patent use numbers... Absolutely confusing. Don't change the date on your gun to earlier than Sep 89....unless you can change the date on your gun to earlier. I can go into this now for hours - it'll drive you crazy. As for Reilly's and the patent use numbers on them that were published , see the list on p.44...I've put them all in brown.

Here's an example....these are Reillys from 1889 with recorded AD boxlock use numbers:
30363 - E.M. Reilly & Co., London. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. BLE. Top lever, Anson & Deely patent use #6250. #1 of pair.
303xx? - E.M. Reilly & Co., 277 Oxford Street, London. 12ga, Shotgun SxS. BLE. Top lever. Anson & Deeley patent use #6265; A&D pat A&D ejector pat use #427 #2 of pair. (SN not mentioned - Norway gun)
30768 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 16 New Oxford St., London. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. BLE A&D patent use #8245 (PAY’s gun)

Last edited by Argo44; 05/01/20 07:24 PM.

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Upcoming Cowan's auction. -
https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/english-schuetzen-percussion-target-rifle-by-e-m-reilly-4015848
English Schuetzen Percussion Target Rifle by E.M. Reilly
50 caliber, 33.25" barrel, no S/N. Damascus barrel with schuetzen-style stock finely checkered at forend and wrist. Blade front sight with iron ramrod pipes with entry pipe leading to reinforced forend. Classic schuetzen type triggerguard with set trigger. Forend tapped for palm rest. Top of barrel marked "E. M. REILLY 502 NE OXFORD ST. E315 OXFORD ST. LONDON." Lockplate marked "REILLY/LONDON" and engraved with classic broad scrolls.

This is the first Schuetzen Reilly that either Terry Buffum or I have ever seen. Analysis: The address on the rib is "E.M. Reilly 502 Ne (sic: "w" is missing) Oxford St. & 315 Oxford St., London". No Serial number has yet been identified (I've asked Cowan's - they confirm no SN). Engraving of the address is crude with misspelling. There is no "& Co." on the Rib or lock plate. Thus, it should have been retailed between August 1858 (opening of 315 Oxford St.) and March 1859 when "E.M. Reilly & Co.," first appeared. Without a serial number, I highly doubt Reilly made it. Belgian work? The "London-twist" Damascus has been seen before Reilly barrels.

I will mention that I'm not very happy with the very curt reply received from Cowan's. It was unprofessional imho and sort of left the feeling there was something to cover up. (The "history" they attached to the ad... while relying to some extent on this site....was not good).

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
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[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 04/15/22 03:33 AM.

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================================================================================
13132 - Terry's Patent gun - dated per chart late 1863


Here is another military style breech loader made by E.M. Really - it's a SxS 40 bore ( .500 caliber) "William Terry's Patent" gun Reilly SN 13132 (late 1863 on the date chart) SxS carbine. Reilly advertised these and there is an article reposted below about an Anglican bishop in Sarawak who killed a boat load of Pirates with a Reilly Terry-Patent SxS gun.

William Terry was a Birmingham gun maker who granted a patent in April 1856; the carbine was issued to the 18th Hussars and other British cavalry regiments in 1859, was used by Australia and New Zealand militia and by the Confederates in the War Between the States.
-- Note Birmingham proof marks, first I've seen for a serial numbered Reilly gun

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25425/lot/324/
A RARE 40-BORE (.500) PERCUSSION TERRY'S PATENT BREECH-LOADING D.B. SPORTING RIFLE
BY E.M. REILLY & CO., NEW OXFORD ST.T., LONDON, NO. 13132, CIRCA 1860
With browned twist sighted barrels each rifled with five grooves, signed in full along the rib and engraved 'Terry's Patent 40 Bore', folding leaf back-sights from '100' to '250' yards, each leaf with central platinum line, border engraved case-hardened breeches decorated with foliate scrollwork, case-hardened bolts, signed detented border engraved flat locks and rounded hammers en suite, the first each with handle hinged against an adjustable blued spring (one screw head replaced), highly figured half-stock (butt with old marks on one side) with chequered grip and fore-end, the latter with dark horn cap, border engraved blued steel mounts comprising russet butt-plate, and trigger-guard with chequered spur, trigger-plate with shaped finial engraved with a scallop shell, vacant silver escutcheon, and much original finish, Birmingham proof marks
70.3 cm. barrels



Here is an 1859 description of the Terry Patent Carbine:
https://books.google.com/books?id=3jBJAA...der&f=false

Here is the above mentioned description of use of the gun in Sarawak by an Anglican Bishop - which cause "outrage" amongst the politically correct in London at the time. The bishop was using a SxS version of the carbine. London didn't understand the problem with pirates that "Rajah Brooks" faced in Sarawak. It was easy to damn while drinking tea on Bond Street....not when you're having your villages ravaged by the pirates. They were lucky they weren't hung...only shot.

Rajah Brooks, the white rajah, (Rajah Muda is son of the White Rajah) and his family ruled Sarawak up to 1960. An utterly amazing story.



If there is any doubt about what jerks and hand-wringers were in the London Press...here is the Wikipedia description of the battle. This is November 1862....sort of seems like 2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Mukah

The Battle off Mukah was a naval engagement fought in 1862 between the navy of Sarawak and pirates. After the kidnapping of Sarawakian citizens some time before, their navy dispatched two small warships which encountered the pirates off Mukah on the northern coast of Borneo. In an unusual action, the Rajah Muda, Captain John Brooke, then the heir apparent to be White Rajah of Sarawak, led his force in the defeat of six pirate ships and the rescue of captured civilians.[2]

The pirates who participated in the battle were Illanuns of the Moro pirates from the southern Philippines.[3] They had raided several coastal settlements in 1862 and the years preceding so many men and women were being held prisoner or worked as galley slaves on board the pirates' prahus.[4] A prahu was a type of large primitive sailing vessel with about a ten-foot beam and usually over forty feet long, which could also be propelled by oars. Armed with three brass swivel guns each, they were roofed by a bamboo cover to protect the ammunition and provisions from rain and to provide a platform to fight from. Sulu pirates sheltered in bays along the coast during the trading season to prey on merchant shipping passing from places like Singapore, Penang, or China back to the Americas or Europe. In response to the affair, Captain Brooke headed down the coast from the town of Sarawak, in November 1862 to build a fort at Bintulu and release the captives at Mukah. He had with him his eighty-foot screw-steamer named Rainbow, armed with two 9-pounder cannons, one 12-pounder and one 4-pounder, the latter two were meant to be offloaded for use at the fort. There was also a gunboat named Jolly Bachelor, under the command of a Captain Hewat, and armed with two brass 6-pounder guns and two small swivels.[5]

While in transit the captain was informed that six prahus were anchored off the port of Mukah, and their crews were raiding the town. So when he arrived at Bintulu the labourers were put ashore to construct the fort and ten Sarawakian soldiers joined the Rainbow's small crew to strengthen it before the coming battle. The Sulus themselves were heavily armed with muskets, pistols, swords, knives, spears so the men of the Sarawakian vessels placed mattresses and other improvised bulwarks on the upper decks to protect their legs from "ugly hits" according to Bishop Francis Thomas McDougall of Labuan, who was present during the battle on board the Rainbow. In all there were eight Europeans involved and a few dozen Sarawakian soldiers and sailors.[6]

The two steamers began their journey down the coast again, shortly finding three of the prahus. The water was shallow and the Rainbow had the Jolly Bachelor in tow; her captain, the Rajah Muda, intended to release the smaller ship as soon as they were in a good firing position. Brooke confirmed with his Sarawakian crew the prahus were pirate. As soon as the Sulus realised they were under attack they began killing the captives while fleeing to dangerous waters. Father McDougall later described the engagement: "So we took to our stations, loaded our guns, and prepared for action. The leading boat had already gained on the other two and was going nearly as fast as the steamer herself. I never saw fellows pull so. We put on all steam, cast off the Jolly, and tried to get in between her and the point, but she beat us, and passed inside of us into shallow water, where we could not follow. Then she opened her fire upon us, which we returned with interest. She, like the others, had no heavy guns, but they all carried three long brass swivels, called lelahs, and plenty of rifles and muskets." The bishop went on to say that one of the captured pirates revealed to him that each of their swivels took seven men to lift and there were forty rifles and muskets aboard each boat, or more.[7]

Captain Brooke's plan, after casting off the Jolly Bachelor, would be to ram the prahus while keeping them engaged so as to prevent the pirates from boarding and overwhelming the Sarawakians. McDougall wrote; "Our plan of action was to silence the brass guns with our rifles, to shake them at their oars with grape and round shot, until we could run into them without their being strong enough to board us. The steamer was kept dodging about within range until the time came to run in; then we got into a good position to put on all steam and given them the stem, which was always admirably and coolly done by Captain Hewat whenever the order was given by the Rajah Mudah." After the first prahu got away the attention was turned to the second boat which was sailing for the shore and when the Rainbow was 200 yards away the Sulus opened fire with all of their guns. For the next few minutes Brooke chased the prahu at full speed before running right over it and sinking her. The Sarawakians called out to the survivors to hang onto the wreckage and wait for rescue, they then went after the third prahu but the Rainbow ran aground in less than two fathoms of water.[8]

The guns were still operable so Brooke had his men return the pirates' fire. No hits were made but near hits forced the pirates to leave their wounded and abandon ship without fighting. Brooke then decided on rescuing the survivors though most of the Sulus took their weapons into the water and continued to fight. The captain also had his men refloat the steamer which was done somewhat easily. Few pirates were recovered according to McDougall and when they saved all that could be, the Rainbow and the Jolly Bachelor continued on slowly down the coast. During this time one of the pirates said that there were three more prahus nearby which were waiting for the three already engaged to rejoin them. After an hour the weather was very calm and a lookout at the masthead spotted the three enemy ships to the starboard, lining up to bear their bow guns on the approaching steamers. However, when the wind picked up again the pirates changed their tactics and hoisted sail to move their ships into broadside position. As the Sarawakians neared the pirates they opened up with their swivels but Brooke waited until his ships were 250 yards away before he gave his men the order to return the fire.[9]

McDougall reported that the final three prahus did not attempt to escape like the first three had and they fought with determination even after all of the Sarawakian guns were brought to bear on them. One of the prahus was run over just as the second and split in two while the largest and final vessel was destroyed by gunfire and sank with a valuable cargo of gold and jewels. McDougall later said: "The poor captives, who were all made fast below as we came up to engage them, were doubtless glad when our stem opened the sides of their ships, and thus let them out of prison. Few, comparatively, were drowned, being mostly all good swimmers. All those who were not lashed to the vessels, or killed by the Illanuns, escaped. Our decks were soon covered with those we picked up, men of every race and nation in the Archipelago, who had been captured by the pirates in their cruise, which had already lasted seven months." McDougall also confirmed the loss of at least one dead and two wounded while several of the pirates were killed or wounded, most having been hit by cannon and rifle fire. In all at least 100 Sulus became casualties while many others escaped to the shore and retreated into the jungle.[10]

Of the rescued most were from Singapore, including the women and children, though there were Chinese slaves and two British subjects as well. They described to the bishop the ways in which they had been tortured by the pirates. One way was that the Illanuns had them drink salt water only, mixing four parts of salt for every three parts of fresh water. They would also rub cayenne pepper into the eyes of their slaves whenever they became too tired to continue rowing. The prisoners could not escape because if they had a chance to jump over the side, the Sulus had a three barbed spear ready and if struck by one the victim could "no longer swim nor run" and would either drown or be retaken. McDougall helped the wounded after they started to come aboard and he described one Singapore Bugis woman as nearly starved to death. Father McDougall claimed he never missed one shot out of the eighty rounds he fired with his rifle. He also said that by the end of the battle, all of their ammunition for the 9-pounders was gone and there were only a few caps and cartridges remaining for the small arms.[11]

The 12-pounder was also knocked out of action early in the engagement and apparently could not be repaired. The bishop said that had another prahu been found, they would have had a difficult time in repulsing or destroying it. When the fighting was over both of Brooke's ships were damaged in some way so he set a course for home and successfully delivered the captives to safety without further opposition from the Sulus.[2][12]

Last edited by Argo44; 06/12/20 10:39 PM.

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=================================================================================================================
35422, 35423 - a pair found (1904 per chart)


A few years ago Stonehengearms advertised this rather plain Jane Reilly 12 ga. SxS BLE. It was number 2 of a pair, SN 35423. It is the first extant Reilly so far found with 295 Oxford Street address on the rib.

http://stonehengearms.co.uk/shotguns/
E.M. REILLY LONDON BOX LOCK EJECTOR
Number 2 of a pair this boxlock ejector has 30" barrels, 2 1/2" chambers and is nitro proofed.The bores are free from pitting and are choked at 1/2 and 3/4. the reach is 15 1/8". Although there is little engraving or embellishment on this gun, it is a gun of good quality. The game rib is engraved with " E.M. Reilly & Co" and the address of 295 Oxford Street in London. This was the address used from 1904 to 1911. There is a vacant escutcheon on the underside of the straight hand stock. The serial number is 35423 if anyone out there has or know of the matching gun to make a pair.


Browsing through Scotarms auctions past catalogs today, came across the action, stock and forearm of 35422....undoubtedly the number 1 of the above mentioned gun. (no photos).

http://www.scotarms.co.uk/catalogues/701.htm
Lot No. 133 The action stock and forend of a 12 bore double barrelled boxlock ejector shotgun by E.M.Reilly & Co. Serial No.35422. Grade 3 plus. FAA Category: RFD

This is the third pair put together since this database was created.

Last edited by Argo44; 05/20/20 09:58 AM.

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=================================================================================================================
10811 - New 1st gun from 315 Oxford Street;


If any one is tracking the Reilly history...there have been a lot of subtle changes since Diggory Hadoke published it last summer on "Vintage Gun Journal." The history and the list of extant guns continues to change...but less radically than at the beginning.

For the latest, I went back and looked at some of the guns from the 1850's...
-- 10811 - a Prince patent breech loader. Per the chart it should have been serial numbered in Fall 1858.
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/print_sale.aspx?saleid=7288
But on the barrel it has two interesting engravings.
. . . . . - "Reilly & Co."
. . . . . - "Oxford Street."

315 aka "Oxford Street" aka "The Manufactory" or "The Amoury House" wasn't opened until January 1859. "Reilly & Co." appeared in some books and advertisements in early 1859....to be superseded by "E.M. Reilly & Co" in October 1859. So I speculate that the gun was ordered in Fall 1858, and completed in January-February 1859....I speculate that the last engraving on the gun was the name and address on the barrel/rib....Bushveld has posted a comment which seems to cement this conclusion...e.g.
-- bespoke guns were serial numbered when ordered.
-- Barrels and other patent parts were given patent use numbers when picked up or were sold in a block.
-- The maker name/address on the rib were the last bit engraved before delivery along with the previously SN on the action and Tang.
**Note: No photo from Christies" for this gun....and thus no confirmation.
And yet, I've decided (on the word of Christies') that this is the earliest 315 gun serial numbered by Reilly. Yes there are questions. I'll be looking to answer them.

Edit: I've decided to trust Christies and call this the earliest gun built at 315 Oxford Street. History has been changed.

Also, taking another look at 11419 (Early 1860)...there are definitely two addresses "315 & 502 Oxford Street" on the barrel (Dated per the chart in early 1860). This is now the first extant long gun with "315" on the gun (building occupied in Jan 1859) - This is definitely the first gun with "315" on the rib....but 10811 has "Oxford Street"...so...for now 2nd place.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/16/20 09:53 PM.

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=================================================================================================================
Reevaluating the mid-1840's chronology. 8378 and 7201 now 1st guns from 502 New Oxford Street;
Significance of "Removed from Holborn"


In addition, looking at all the data, the trade labels, etc., I've had to conclude that the the JC Reilly "7000" series gun SN 7201 with the "removed from Holborn" address was indeed made in 1847 not 1849 and thus had to move it back.



That means that the 1st JC Reilly "7000' gun, SN 7023 was probably numbered in late 1845 or early 1846 (It still has 316 High Holborn on the rib).


I've also had to conclude that the Swedish SxS SN'd "8578" gun was indeed 8378 making it the earliest gun after the move to New Oxford Street. I've therefore changed the Extant Serial Number chart to reflect this...having to move around some serial number chronology by a few dozen guns a year (p.44)...and the serial number chart on the History (p.45). This fits with the label on 8378 which includes "Removed from Holborn." (It also makes a clean 5000 SN jump from the last extant High Holborn gun 3329 to 8378 very plausible. - and E.M brought discipline to his Dad's business from the looks of things.)
]


Given the few guns from this time period, it's still pretty hypothetical; and yet, amazingly there are 9 existing guns from 1846-1849 with maker inscriptions and trade labels which enables a better than usual chart from this time period. I was never quite comfortable with the old chart...I changed a few guns per year to make everything fit...but the new chart of 1840's serial numbers seems much more logical now. It's not a big deal - just about all those guns from that era were shot out many years ago - but it was something to correct. If other guns appear, this may change. I'll change the history to reflect this tomorrow.

Here is why I think the "Removed from Holborn" dates a gun from late March 1847 to November 1847. Reilly advertisements in London newspapers used that phrase from early April to at least November 1847 after their March 23 moved from High Holborn to 502 New Oxford Street. By December 1847 the phrase was no longer found on their advertisements.

1. April 3, 1847 from "Illustrated London News"
2. October 30, 1847, from "London Daily News"


December 21, 1847 "Illustrated London News"


Edit: History has been modified to reflect the above. I feel much better about the accuracy of the chart over the period of the move from 316 High Holborn to 508 New Oxford street now.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/01/20 10:28 AM.

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Based on the above and a lot of other input. I've added the last paragraph to the "Caveats" at the end of the Reilly history on p.45.

Caveats:
-- Reilly did not serial number guns he did not make.
-- When 001 was numbered or if there were a 001 is unknown; 1825 was chosen as a start date because he may have joined the London Proof House at that time (not confirmed). In addition Reilly is NOT on a list of London gunmakers published in 1825. The earliest Reilly advertisements for guns alone so far found began in the London papers in 1827. The first existing gun is SN
162.
-- Reilly originally serial numbered pistols; that ended circa 1837.
-- The number of guns numbered per year are estimates based on date markers - the addresses on the ribs/barrels based on specific events such as moves to new addresses or change in address numbers which are historically proven.. Obviously numbers actually made each year varied. The curve has been smoothed as much as possible to eliminate wild swings and verified by
sanity checks."
-- There is a huge uptick in numbers in 1881-82. Reilly apparently made the business decision to stock guns and sell ready-made/off-the-rack. If so he may have numbered them when sold, accounting for some discrepancies. His bespoke guns were probably numbered when ordered per general London practice
-- Patent numbers on guns can help date a gun;
. . . . . . . - but many guns were modified/up-graded; one Reilly (SN 10354) built in 1857 was originally a muzzle loader turned into a breech loader in 1895.
. . . . . . . - And patent use numbers were rarely chronological. Manufacturers bought blocs of numbers in some cases.
. . . . . . . - In addition the relationship of patent use numbers to gun Serial Number cannot be ascertained so easily. For instance Henry patent rifling would be stamped on tubes - but when these were selected in relationship to when the serial number for the gun was entered on the books is not clear.
. . . . . . . - So patent numbers can be sanity checks but no proof of date of manufacture.

-- Reilly prided himself on delivering bespoke guns in 3-6 months vice the 2-3 years of other makers. The guns would have been serial-numbered upon order. However, the SN chronology is dated based on rib/barrel-addresses from 15 or so key date-marker guns. These addresses would have been engraved and the barrels blacked/browned shortly before delivery. Thus serial numbers may precede the rib-addresses by several months. For example, 10811 could have been ordered in Fall 1858 and serial numbered at that time on the books but not delivered until 1859 (which explains why it has "315" on the barrel.)

Last edited by Argo44; 05/22/20 02:26 PM.

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==================================================================================
Change - First Reilly Prince Patent - 10782


Looking further at the Reilly database, it turned out that Prince Patent Reilly-made breech loader "10872" with "Reilly, New Oxford Street, London on the barrel, in fact is 10782 (numbered late summer 1858). It was misadvertised by the auction house. It was numbered a month before 10811 making the maker's name "Reilly" rather than the "Reilly & Co." on 10811 a chronological fit: It is now the first extant Reilly Prince patent.




Last edited by Argo44; 06/22/20 11:27 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Argo44
There is an interesting sidelock 12ga SxS Reilly shotgun that just appeared on Guntrader.uk...(which references this website) SN 32658:
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/r...200227180805801
"There is a web site dedicated to E.M.Reilly guns and I have managed to find out this gun was made in 1895."

Why the screws on the fences?

The screws retain a cover plate under which the forward extension of the toplever which forms the top bolt sits.Just seen the same setup on another (boxlock) gun.



For more see this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=566282#Post566282

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