doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com c.1900 Live Bird & Target Gun Stocks

Didn't want to clutter the SBT thread. It is my opinion (meaning little) that the move to a full pistol (rather than straight or POW) grips for double guns started about 1895.

Fred Gilbert (1865-1928) was one of the world�s best known shooters from 1895-1915 and used a L.C. Smith to win the DuPont World�s Pigeon Shooting Championship in 1895 and the "E. C." Inanimate Target Championship Cup in 1896.
The "Fred Gilbert Specifications" were for a drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.

In Feb. 1898, C.W. Budd received on consignment a Parker $400 AAH Pigeon Gun SN 87449 with 30" Whitworth barrels F/F and 2 7/8 " chambers. LOP was 14"; and DAH 2 1/4" with a pistol grip stock and no safety. It weighed 7# 12 oz.

November 23, 1901, The Sportsmen�s Review, in an article written by �Gaucho� entitled, �A Few Remarks on Some Celebrated Guns,� Capt. du Bray lists some prominent Parker shooters and the guns they used. Courtesy of John Davis.
Straight - 19; Pistol - 8; 1/2 - 5

Name --- Barrel Length -- Weight -- DAC -- DAH -- Stock Length -- Grip
W. E. Beesom -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 7/16 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 1/2 -- St.
W. L. Boyd -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" � 1 1/2 -- 2 1/8 -- 14 1/8 � St.
C. W. Budd -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 15" -- 1 1/2 -- 2 -- 14 -- PW
P. W. H. Colquitt -- Parker -- 30" -- 7 12"-- 1 1/4 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 3/4 -- St.
V. C. Dagan -- Parker -- 30" -- 8' -- 1 3/8 -- 3 -- 14 1/2 -- P.
O. R. Dickey -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 14" -- 1 5/8 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 -- St.
E. E. Ellis -- Parker -- 32" -- 8' -- 1 5/8 -- 2 5/8 -- 14 1/2 -- P.
F. C. Etheridge -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 6" -- 2 1/8 -- 3 1/8 -- 14 -- 1/2 P.
A. H. Frank -- Parker -- 30" � 7' 12" -- 1 1/8 -- 2 3/8 -- 14 -- St.
Fred Gilbert -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 14" -- 1 3/8 -- 2 -- 14 1/4 -- P.
W. A. Hammond -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 5/8 � 2 3/8 -- 14 3/4 -- St.
Jno. W. Harrison -- Parker -- 28" -- 6' -- 1 1/2 -- 2 1/2 -- 14 -- P.
Sam Hutchings -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" -- 1 1/2 -- 2 1/2 -- 14 1/2 -- St.
J. F. Jordan -- Parker -- 26" -- 5 3/4 -- 2 -- 3 -- 14 -- St.
H. J. Lyons -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 10" -- 1 1/4 -- 1 7/8 -- 14 1/8 -- St.
Geo. S. McAlpin -- Parker -- -- 7' 6" -- 1 1/4 -- 1 3/4 -- 14 1/2 -- St.
J. R. Malone -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 15"-- 1 1/2 � 2 -- 15 -- St.
R. R. Merrill -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" -- 1 5/8 -- 2 5/8 -- 14 5/8 -- 1/2 P.
F. S. Parmelee -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 12" -- 1 1/2 -- 2 -- 14 1/2 -- P.
C. M. Powers -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 1/8 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 3/8 -- St.
W. C. Rawson -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 3/8 -- 2 -- 14 1/8 -- St.
R. S. Rhoads -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 15" -- 1 1/8 -- 2 1/8 -- 14 1/2 -- P.
C. E. Robbins -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 11" -- 1 1/2 -- 2 1/2 -- 14 1/4 -- P.
Frank Simpson -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" -- 1 1/2 -- 2 3/8 -- 14 3/8 -- St.
Franklin Stearns -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 1/2 -- 2 1/2 -- 15 -- 1/2 P.
E. H. Tripp -- Parker -- 30" -- 8' -- 1 1/2 -- 2 5/8 -- 14 1/2 -- St.
S. A. Tucker -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 14" -- 1 1/2 -- 2 -- 14 -- St.
D. A. Upson -- Parker -- 26" -- 7' -- 1 1/4 -- 2 -- 14 1/4 -- 1/2 P.
R. Van Gilder -- Parker -- 27" -- 6" 2' -- 1 5/8 -- 3 1/8 -- 14 1/4 -- St.
Wm. Wagner - Parker -- 30" -- 7" 10' -- 1 1/4 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 --- St.
Dr. F. C. Wilson -- Parker -- 32" -- 7" 10' -- 1 1/2 -- 2 1/4 -- 15 -- St.
Leroy Woodward -- Parker -- 30" -- 7" 13' -- 1 3/8 -- 2 -- 14 1/4 -- P.

However, single barrel repeating shotguns continued to come with a straight grip, including the Winchester 1897 Tournament Grade trap gun introduced in 1909



Model 12 1914



Stevens Repeater 1913

Lovely ladies at the (DuPont) Nemours Club for Women Trapshooters, organized in 1913. Mostly pistol grip and about 1/2 repeating shotguns.

1922 Kirtland Bros., N.Y catalog

Ballistite (note spelling in image) Squad c. 1910. I think the gentleman back left has a SBT

Brother, very interesting to see how the weights were to one another, in the high 7#s.
Except for one guy, Jordon who shot a 5 3/4 lb. Parker with 26" barrels. He must have been a gluten for punishment.
A few others were shooting lightweights as well with short barrels.

Who stated that these old guns had a lot of drop, not from what I can see, and the length of pull kind of busts the myth that shooters then were shorter.

Straight grips are faster....

The modern day trap shooter is slower and methodical almost to the point of being mechanical.

E.D. Fulford defeated Capt. Jack Brewer "Champion Wing Shot of the World" and "The Best Shot on Live Birds the World Has Ever Known" when they shot three, 100 bird matches at Al Heritage's grounds, Marion, New Jersey in November, 1891 for $3000 a side. Fulford killed 204 birds straight during the event.
Fulford won the re-match January, 1892 at Woodland Park, Long Island for $1,000 a side, killing 100 birds straight to Brewer�s 99. In preliminary practice and in the match Fulford scored 421 birds straight. After the loss, Brewer declared "I will shoot against any man in the world for the World's Championship Cup which I now hold with $5000 or $10,000 a side, Hurlingham or London Club rules to govern." There is no record that match took place.

Nov. 8, 1895
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_07/SL2607011.pdf
E. D. Fulford is now using a single-barrel gun, and claims that he can do better work with it as inanimate targets than, when using a double-barrel gun. The new gun is a Greener, single-barrel, 12-bore, weighing 7 1/2 pounds, with a 32-inch barrel, and can use from 40 to 60 grains of powder without any variation in pattern. The breech is extra heavy, and the gun throughout made to stand heavy loads.

Fulford used a Greener double at the 1895 GAH

1897 he was a Remington Rep



and won the 1898 GAH at Live Birds
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_31_NO_02/SL3102016.pdf
E. D. Fulford, the winner, needs no introduction to the shooting men of this country. He has been at the traps as a professional shot for five or six years and is at present a shooting representative of the Remington Arms Co., and used a Remington hammerless gun weighing 7 3/4 lbs., 3 1/2 Schultze powder in U.M.C. Trap shells, three inches in length; 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 shot.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_26/SL3026025.pdf
Utica, N. Y. March 14, 1898
TRAP FACTS FROM FULFORD
A gun with two sets of barrels, both the same length and weight, is to be recommended. Have trap set bored to shoot 70 per cent, of load in a 30-inch circle, at 40 yards. Have field set with right barrel cylinder and left barrel modified choke. Get a gun with drop and cast-off that fits you, and one that you can hit the objects with. The average man needs about 2 3/4 inches drop at butt, 1 1/2 inches drop at comb, 14 1/4 inches long, full pistol grip, weight 7 1/2 to 8 pounds.
The Remington Arms Company without doubt or question produce the best and strongest gun for the money made in the world to-day.

The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun ..., William Bruce Leffingwell, 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC
The king of all pigeon shooters is �Capt.� John L. Brewer of Philadelphia.
�A gun for pigeon shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to anywhere under 8 pounds. It should be heavy at the breech, with a long and very straight stock, having a drop from 2 to 2 1/2 inches at the butt. These straight stocks are desirable, because they cause one to shoot high, something which is essential, as there is a tendency to undershoot, and nearly every pigeon is missed by shooting under or behind. A pigeon gun should be bored to shoot a trifle high. Birds going from the trap are almost invariably rising, and as there is an almost uncontrollable tendency to aim at a straight-away bird, one should hold a trifle over.�

"Straight" here seems to apply to drop; can't tell from this studio image the grip he used but the position of his hand looks like a pistol grip.

you beat me to it. i was going to start a discussion on pg or straight grips. thanks!

and if everyone would please note, in every one of those ad pics, its a straight stock.

J.J. "UMC" Hollowell of Tucson, AZ at Watson's Park, Chicago Dec. 1897. Definitely a straight grip



1897 & 1899 GAH Winner Hon. Thomas Marshall with his Cashmore from Leslie's Weekly Illustrated, N.Y., May 4, 1899. Clearly a straight grip by his right hand position.
Marshall, C.M. Grimm, J.G. Knowlton, J.A. Jackson, S. Hoffman and Geo. Roll (possibly standing behind Marshall) all killed 25 birds. Marshall won with 33 birds in the shoot-off after Grimm missed his 32 bird.



Holding his gun after the 1897 win