doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unknown makers mark

Hi Gents, I have arrived here after much searching of the web, I wonder if you can help me out with some information about, what to me is, an enigmatic gun.
It is a side by side, back action hammer, underlever with 30" damask barrels.
It has rebound locks and a steel butt plate, it has Birmingham proofing and is marked with the choke size, I would guess at a date of around 1887.

The bit that I cannot get is the maker, the only markings on the lock plates are W.M & G.... that is it, nothing more, I have searched and searched for a maker that used this mark and have found nothing, can anyone here shed some light for me?

That would initially suggest William Moore & Grey, a very good London maker.

However ...my understanding is that their name was used spuriously, often by a Belgian maker. As far as I am aware they always signed their guns 'Wm Moore & Grey'. They also always numbered their guns. So you need to be wary of attributing this gun to them until further investigation has been carried out.

It would be helpful if you could kindly post some photos of the gun, especially the markings and proof marks. We may then be able to assist further.

Tim

Thanks for the input, Interestingly on further scrutiny I have found a number on the trigger guard tang, it is No 4001... The gun is very worn, it has obviously been used a lot in its lifetime.

I cannot find a direct upload button for pictures, at some point I will look to getting some photo's online to link too.

Regards Rog

Remove the barrels and look at the proof marks on the underside of them. If you see an ELG stamping that signifies it was made in Belgian and not English made.
OOPS-I just saw where you said t has Birmingham proofs.

Wm Moore & Grey (gunmaking business under various names from 1820 to 1908) did of course have a Birmingham workshop (Whittal St, Loveday St) at the same time as their London premises, so it would be quite feasible for this gun to have come out of their shop there. I believe most of these guns ended up for export, with higher end guns made in London.

Serial numbers may help to narrow down the dates and from my own research I have the following:

No 374 Earliest number at 78 Edgware Road address, from 1828
Became William Moore & Co in 1836
No 875 Earliest number at 43 Old Bond Street, from 1854
Became Wm Moore & Grey in 1862
No 4737 Earliest number at 165 Piccadilly, from 1896
No 5613 Earliest number at 8 Craven St, from 1902

The proof marks will help narrow down the date for this gun further, since 1862 - 1896 is rather a large span!

Tim

Is there an address on the rib?

Here follow some photo's, first the proof marks, the centre rib has a couple of letter "c"'s on it and the full serial number on barrels and fore end.



Next we have the makers mark.



.....the number from the trigger guard tang



General view of gun.

From the pictures it appears your guns barrels and action don't match,which makes its pedigree irrelevant.
If it's a shooter,enjoy it.

Hi Justin,

Can you help me understand what lead you to that conclusion? Is it the different number engraved on the trigger guard tang?

I'll have to check to make sure, but I believe that I have several guns that have numbers engraved on the guard that do not match the serial numbers stamped on the barrel and action flats.

Thanks

redoak,yes that's right. There are inatances where there are other numbers on the barrel tubes but as for Brit. made guns the numbers on the guard will match the serial numbers on the barrels. If not the barrels have been replaced.
Of course like all things British I'm sure there are exceptions but I can't think of any.

or the trigger guard has been replaced with one from another gun b4 folks cared if the numbers matched.....

Yeah, it's possible not likely

Trigger guards are a lot easier & less expensive to replace. Does the action have a number on it, many do. If so& it matches wither of the other two numbers it should be obvious which was replaced.

The probably explanation of the miss-matched numbers is quite simple.
This is a 'trade' gun, bought in to fill a space on the rack. It probably was 'retailed' by William Moore & Grey but it is very unlikely that they 'made' it. The use of WM&G instead of the full name was simply to save a few more pennies.
The number on barrels and forend are most likely that of the manufacturer, probably Scott as they were working in the 40000 range in 1887 which is the last year of the proof marks.
The shorter 4001 number is more likely WH&G own serial number for their sales ledger.
Only guns made and finished in their entirety by a Maker are likely to have matching numbers on all parts. I see lots of good quality guns by well known makers that carry a range of numbers: barrel makers, actioners etc etc.

As a matter of interest, according to Nigel Brown (in person), the 'CHOKE' variant of the 'NOT FOR BALL' proof marks (with the two bore measurements) as we have here is a sign of ORIGINAL recessed (jug) chokes. Obviously, with recessed chokes there was no concern about people putting a solid ball through their gun and blowing the last few inches off the barrels so no need for the 'NOT FOR BALL'!
As it turned out, it was a non-problem anyway but that's progress for you!

Thanks Toby, I overlooked that.Maybe the gun was bound for Africa or India.

Thanks for all the info so far.

I will have another look, where is it likely to be?

... once we have exhausted this subject I may have to start posting about the single barrel muzzle loader with percussion lock that has appeared