doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

On p. 380 of 'L.C. Smith "The Legend Lives"', the damascus barrels as graded by Hunter Arms are shown, and the steel % described as follows:
English Stub Twist- 52%
Good Two Rod Damascus- 60%
Good Four Stripe Chain Damascus- 60%
Fine Three Rod Damascus- 67%
Finest Three Rod Damascus- 70%
Choice Three Rod Herring Bone Pattern- 70%

The Greener brls may be 'Bernard', which was available in several grades. Please see Ferdinand Drissen's 1897-1898 price sheet:

More notes on American damascus if anyone is still interested
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In early 1864, Walter Baker of Ilion NY (very near Lisle NY. then home of W H Baker, but I don't know if they're related)recieved a patent for a trip hammer that was specially designed for making gun barrels (patent 41669)...one of the reasons I'm mentioning this patent, is to show the tail end of hammering, and that by the late 1860's the shotgun industry had already adopted the higher volume production techniques. I am hoping that the thread contributor with access to the Tompkins County directory will cross check the name of Walter Baker, to see if he appears anywhere near Motts Corners (prior to 1863). I'll check Jerry Swinney's files for the same.
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In 1865, Ethan Allen recieved a patent for twisting, winding, and welding damascus shotgun barrels. The patent, 48249, goes into details of the process. One the witnesses is Sullivan Forehand. Then, exactly one year later Ethan recieved another patent for soldering the tubes together through internal flaming. Again Sullivan Forehand was a witness. Ethan Allen resided in Worcester Mass at the time of both patents
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In 1869, a patent was issued to Selah Hiler of Harlem NY for improvement in the manufacture of gun barrels in which he states that "sucessive rolling operations" is the "usual" (manufacturing process) (by 1869). This is not the only reference to the rolling of damascus shotgun barrels in the historical record, but it is the last time I will spend trying to convince the guys still holding onto the thousands of hammering elves concept. (samurai barrels)


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Lastly, although this is not for American made damascus, I thought that you might be interested to know that winding was not the only technique used for making damascus barrels. In 1892, Franz Meixner of Austria recieved a U.S. patent for a new departure in damascus barrel making that involves many cones stacked around the mandrel. This technique offers a much higher surface to surface area for welding, and theoretically offers a far stronger damascus barrel than anything seen before. (US pat 477763)


I hope I'm adding to the understanding and not inadvertantly adding to the misunderstandings involved with damascus steel shotgun barrels...Please note how the great missing chapter of American double evolution keeps cropping up ...Worcester

Here's a copy of Ethan Allen's damascus patent. I decided to post it only because it's a very interesting read. Please say if this data is overly technical.

Walter Baker is 33 in 1870. Born in England and works in the armory. He lives in German Flats, NY with his wife and 4 children.

William H Baker is 44 in 1880. He lives in Manlius, NY with his wife and 7 childern, the youngest a boy named Walter. William H Baker is listed as being born in NY.

Of course, I could have these 2 names very confused...

Worcester is interesting. It is the home of the Bay State gun company which was later purchased by Hopkins & Allen. Bay State used several patents by W.H. Davenport, who later sold single barrel shotguns under his own name.

By the way. Nice work finding the trip hammer patent.

Drew,

I like the price list. I have seen similiar, but never so complete.

Pete

Pete,
You sure nailed it down at light speed. With W H and Walter being only a year apart and born on different continents, I guess it's highly unlikely they're related. Also, Walter's being born in England, makes it unlikley that he ever worked for the dyed in the wool outfit later known as Losey and Lull (in Motts Corners) Thank you Bob

Pete: The Price List comes from the April, 1976 American Rifleman article, and helps a great deal trying to interpret the quality level of the various named damascus patterns.

Rev,
After all this is your topic...and you have taught me 10X more about damascus barrels than anyone...I was hoping that you would say whether or not I'm adding to the understanding or whether I'm being overly technical. I figured that the biggest contributions I could add, is to dispell the erred concepts that damascus was never produced in America and the samurai barrel notion. I hope you see this data as positive advances in the understanding of damascus barrels. If not, just say so and I won't contribute further...Bob Chambers

Robert: By profession and calling, my duty and responsibility is to seek the truth. ANY 'truth', as best we can document and understand, is a contribution to the field of knowledge. Unfortunately, in Medicine anyway, what passes as 'truth' usually changes every few years Hard to argue with copies of patents however! And your, and Pete's, contributions, and every pic posted with a different damascus pattern, have been extremely valuable.

I believe the book, Espingarda Perfeyta or The Perfect Gun, written in 1718 shows the "cone" method of making Damascus barrels. Of course, not called Damascus then. Interesting a patent for something similar over 150 years later.

Robert,

Do you have a patent number for the Selah Hiler patent? I want to read it. Rolling mills became essential for the gun industry. Curious to see if the patent talks about low / high carbon etc.

Your information is very valuable. Do not stop.

Pete