doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Guyot shotguns

The Europeans don't want or like our double shotguns and I don't blame them. How many Winchester Model 21 just sit at auction or sell at a minimum well below reserve. Our Colt revolvers and Winchester lever action rifles, yes, but not our doubles.

With respect Treblig, the Europeans don't want or like American guns because they were never sold American guns. Americans, on the other hand, have been being sold British and European firearms for as long as America has been around.

I think you underestimate the importance of the marketing and selling of a product in creating a receptive market place.

Mind you, I agree about the Win 21. LOL

Little Creek, the "expert" on spelling Purdey does not even own a double shotgun.



Here's Jagermeister telling us about his one and only shotgun. He didn't say if he actually owns it, or if he merely rents it like his .22 rifle and an AKM he recently returned to the gun rental store. I did not even know you could rent a gun.

I've seen Guyot sidelocks & boxlocks listed in old Abercrombie & Fitch Used Gun catalogs.

I've also seen hammerguns that looked like they were from the 1870s and Petrik-style OUs that looked fairly modern -- all marked Guyot.

It wouldn't surprise me if Guyot was gunmaker/family of gunmakers at one point who ended up retailing stuff made in the trade. Pretty common path for the smallish Euro makers to follow.

I've read that one of the Guyots had a retail presence in London at one time, and I've wondered if this Guyot learned to build guns there.

A lot of the sidelock Guyots I've seen are very London-esque.

Most of the boxlocks have looked like they came out of Belgian -- very similar to boxlock Brancquaerts.

OWD

My get-rich-quick-scheme was to fly to Europe. buy all of the Winchester Model 21s I could find for pennies on a dollar or Euro I should say, then bring them back here and sell them at a premium. A guy can dream can't he???

Checking out Dr. Hause's article, always great stuff to read, it seems that the W. & C. Scott was the big shot on the live pigeon scene.

At the Riverton Handicap March 8, 1895 only one of the 15 competitors used an American made gun; all the others British.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_24_NO_25/SL2425015.pdf
�It may be interesting to some to note the guns and loads used, and we give it below. It was a lamentable fact that of the 15 guns used only one American make was represented. This was a special pigeon gun of the Parker Brothers' manufacture, and was a beautiful weapon in every way, and was owned by Mr. Post, whose score of 93 on a hard lot of birds did not show that the shooting power was lacking."
"All the guns were 12 gauge, and it was noticeable that not a full pistol-grip stock was among the number, and most of them were the straight-grip �pigeon gun� model, nine being of this description, and six of the half-grip style. All were of the hammerless pattern excepting two; Mr. Welch and Mr. Robbing using hammerguns.�
Following is the make of guns and loads used:
Capt. A.W. Money - Greener, 7 1/2 pounds.
George Work - Purdey, 7 1/2 pounds.
Post - Parker pigeon gun (AAH introduced in 1894)), 7 11-16 pounds.
Jim Jones - Scott, 7 3-16 pounds.
John B. Ellison - Scott, 7 1/4 pounds.
Fred Moore - Purdey, 7 7-16 pounds.
Leonard - Westley Richards, 7 1/2 pounds.
Mott - Crown grade Greener, 7 2-16 pounds.
J.S. Robbins - Greener hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds.
R. Welch - Purdey hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds
Downing - Scott, 7 6-16 pounds.
J.K. Palmer � Francotte, 7 1/2 pounds.
Edwards - Scott Premier, 7 pounds.
J. Wolstencroft - Greener, 6 15-16 pounds.
Eckert - Scott Premier, 7 1/4 pounds.

More information here, with a list of guns used at GAHs; almost no French, but some Francottes promoted by VL&D
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8QkBDo-KIQYk2G8lkE-kHLUybB5NJzBahX_eFKEyuY/preview

Interesting that even after the McKinley Tariff of 1890 added 35% + $6 to the price of top-quality, foreign made shotguns, the serious shooters still preferred them.

OWD

In 1895, Will K. Park, Gun Editor for Sporting Life began to aggressively promote American maker's guns in a series of editorials.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_24_NO_21/SL2421013.pdf
Feb. 16, 1895 Sporting Life (Spelling is as written)
During the past three years on visits to such sporting clubs as Larchmont, Carteret, Tuxedo and Riverton, we have noted the peculiar fact that out of 20 or 30 guns on the grounds at one time there will possibly be one gun of American manufacture. All the others are �Crown Grade Grenier's,� �Premier Quality Scott's,� �Purdy's� and other foreign makes.
The remarkable state of affairs, which is not creditable to American manufacturers, would indicate that there is something lacking on their part. We know that men with �hobbies� are willing to spend much money to gratify their �hobby;� but we are not willing to concede, if only from a patriotic sense, that American manufacturers are unable to satisfy their countrymen's �hobby� in guns.

April 6, 1895
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_02/SL2502014.pdf
Some Facts About the Retail Gun Trade - The Mania For Foreign-Made Guns
Parker Bros., of Meriden, Conn., are producing a Special high grade pigeon gun which is certainly equal to an imported gun in every way, and best of all, the shooting quality is not lacking.
The Hunter Arms Co., of Fulton, N. Y., also make a special gun which is finely finished, perfectly balanced and contains the best workmanship.
The Lefever Arms Co., of Syracuse are also catering to this better class of trade, and have already filled many orders for guns costing $300 to $400 which were equal in material, finish design of engraving and general workmanship to any foreign gun costing much more money.

The "buy American" campaign, and the price differences, must have worked.

First DuPont Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament, October 1895
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_06/SL2606012.pdf
Fred Gilbert (L.C. Smith) and Charles �Hayward� Macalester (Purdey) tied at 25; Gilbert won the shoot-off 5/5 to 4/5.
Charles Wagner (Parker), E.B. Coe (Smith), Capt. John L. Brewer (Greener), and A.H. King (Scott Monte Carlo) tied at 24; Wagner won the shoot-off taking 3rd place.
Guns: Smith � 13, Parker � 8, Greener � 11, Lefever � 6, Francotte � 4, Scott & Remington � 3 each, Francotte � 2, Colt, Grant, Boss & Purdey � 1 each

Price comparisons
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OTND2bQH0vhlbCf7c2sN8H1vzmT7xagUSXhewGB03SE

I would hazard a guess that 80 plus percent of French Double Guns are GI bringbacks.