doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Steel Strength

I guess it would look someething like the following:

http://www.google.com/patents/US1316509
U.S. of A. Patent 1316509

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/12624/Belgian-Snider-Carbine#.U5Op2fmwKTk

"ROSE'S were Rose Brothers Gun and Pistol Barrel Makers of 13 Newton Street, Birmingham and Hales Owen Mills and Forge (1860-70) Miss R. Rose, agent, 13 Newton Street (1864-70)

Aaron Rose had been granted British Patent 13,299 of 24th October 1850 for making twisted iron barrels. I had a Volunteer Enfield with one of their barrels which had a beautifully browned barrel bringing out the extra fine twist pattern very clearly.

To quote their advertisement of 1868 �
�ROSE BROTHERS (by her Majesty�s Royal Letters Patent) Hales Owen Mills and Forge, near Birmingham, Manufacturers of Chassepot Rifles and Every Description of Military Gun Barrels, from either steel or iron, Manufacturers of Drilled Cast Steel Moulds, for rolling Chassepot Rifle Barrels, or any other description of Military Barrels. Also, Manufacturers of every description of Sporting Gun Barrels, Either Breech-Loaders, or Muzzle-Loaders, made from Steel or any description of Fancy Twist Iron. Contracts made with Foreign Governments for Chassepot Rifle Barrels, either in the unfinished or finished state, likewise for Cast Steel Drilled Moulds. N.B. Retail Warehouse 25, Newton Street, Birmingham.�"

http://books.google.com/books?id=NJZQAQA...rel&f=false
Mentions a Joseph Barnsley


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellenbr
At one time I had in my collection a 12G double, top lever hammer gun by C.H.Smith,Steel House lane, Birmingham, made circa 1900. This gun had barrels marked Rose Bros, According to my records,the barrels were single iron twist or Single iron Damascus twist. The gun in question was low end selling for about 7 pounds stirling at the time of manufacture.
C.H.Smith was still in business in Steel House lane circa 1950, In fact I visited the shop during my student days in Birmingham.

Amazing what one might find on DoubleGunBBS courtesy of Walt Snyder in 2009

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153034&page=all

A.P. Curtis, General Manager of the Ithaca Gun Co. requested composition analysis and tensile strength testing on a section �cut from a barrel made in Belgium� performed by E.J. Stormer, Racine, Wisconsin in 1919.
Courtesy of Walt Snyder.
Carbon .32%
Manganese .78%
Phosphorus .018%
Sulphur .033%
No chromium nor nickel
Tensile strength was �about 70,000� psi

This is very similar to a sample of Parker Titanic Steel recently analyzed and published in Parker Pages by Dave Suponski
Carbon .32%
Manganese .70%
Phosphorus .033%
Sulfer .077%
BUT the Titanic steel had .078% Nickel and .031% Chromium

Trojan Steel
Carbon .35%
Manganese .84%
Phosphorus .03%
Sulphur .025%
Nickel .04%
Chromium .02%

Unfortunately, the date of manufacture of neither barrel is known, and the composition may certainly have changed in the years after WWI.

A bit off subject, but I had noticed buried towards the end of Puraye's "Making Damascus Barrels" booklet ('76 American Riflemen two part article). There's comment about a section of barrel that was evaluated in FN's lab under the 'metallographic microscope'.

The time frame of the original publication puts that study in the fifty plus years ago ballpark. It was noted the barrel was 'autogenous', as your images showed, and not a bunch of seems and defects. Sorry if you had noticed that before, but maybe these barrels can be evaluated as low carbon low alloy tubes without some factor adjustment for damascus.

Drew, the only sample that I have a difinitive date on is the Parker Steel sample(1926). The others were not dated but I am fairly confident they date from the 1900-1915 era. As I am sure you know metallurgy in this era was a work in progress and changing on an almost daily basis.

Thank you Dave and Craig.

For comparison

Winchester Nickel Steel from Bethlehem Steel Co. Jan. 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=YzhUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&lpg
Carbon .50%
Phosphorous .026%
Manganese .77%
Sulphur .037%
Nickel 4.0%
Tensile Strength 106,900 psi

1905 Krupp Chrome Nickel Steel Brand "D"
0.5% Carbon
3.26% Chromium
0.16% Manganese
1.26% Nickel
0.04% Phosphorus
0.03% Sulphur

Modern AISI 4140 Chrome Moly Steel
Carbon .38 - .43%
Phosphorous .035%
Manganese .75 � 1.0%
Sulphur .04%
Chromium .80 � 1.10%
Molybdenum .15 - .25%

My apology to all those who contributed $s and barrel segments for tensile testing and composition analysis. I submitted 7 articles a year ago to DGJ, including a 2 part failure analysis and metallurgical study. I have not been informed that the articles have been rejected, but maybe Cote' is trying not to hurt my tender feelings

I have material for an 8th article regarding composition analysis, which would include Dave's Parker barrel study, but don't wish to invest more time or money until if/when the other articles are published. If ultimately rejected, I'll give up, eat the cost of the testing, and put the articles on the DamascusKnowledge website.

I recently obtained a Meriden Fire Arms single barrel. Sears catalog No. 117 of 1908 listed the No. 18 double and the single barrel No. 424 A.J. Aubrey guns with "Genuine Armory Steel" AND "Genuine Crystal Barrels". Catalog No. 124 of 1912 listed the No. 18 double with "Decarbonized Steel".

I also came into a c. 1920s Crescent single barrel which interestingly still retains the 'LLH' mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran. The barrel is not marked "Armory Steel" so composition analysis should be interesting.



Crescent listed "Armory Steel" barrels with the introduction of the Model 0 Hammer Double in 1897. The 1902 Sears catalog listed the �Automatic Ejector Single Gun�, a Crescent No. 8 �Bored For Nitro Powder� with �Decarbonized Armory Steel Barrel�. As late as H&D Folsom Arms Co. Catalogue No. 35 (1930-31), the listing for the New �Empire� (Crescent No. 9) states the barrels are �Fine Decarbonized �High Pressure� Steel � Proof Testing with loads considerably heavier than standard loaded shells�.
I suspect "Armory Steel" is going to turn out to be similar to Marlin �Special Rolled Steel� and Winchester Standard Ordnance (Bessemer Cold) �Rolled� Steel with a reported tensile strength of 66,000 - 69,000 psi.

So- Titanic steel has a sulfer composition, but the way cheaper Trojan grade Parker with the Trojan steel barrels has a sulphur composition- Thank you, oh LaufMeister Drewbie-silly old me, I had the Parker barrels pegged at the AISI 1140 range- just shows to go ya that even an old pipeliner with API, AWS and ASTM certification under his Huntsman hood doesn't know all there is about metallurgy-many thanks for the most enlightening analysis- RWTF

Drew, Dan can be on the slow side when it comes to responding to submissions. But he's run the Sherman Bell "Finding Out For Myself" series, so there's always hope. You've done good work, and it's certainly worthy of publication somewhere.

The publishers are probably running around buying up Damascus barreled guns.
Or sending your articles thru their lawyers, worried about liability.

You may want to see if a professional metallurgical journal is interested. Peer review and all that.

Thanks for the hard work.