doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Ident. German Drilling C. Adam in Coln 2x16ga, 9.3

I need help identifying this German Drilling that was possibly made in Cologne Germany around 1870. I can't find the gunmaker anywhere and it must be a little rare because I can't find any information on it at all. The numbers and stamps are shown in the pictures. Something it has that I haven't seen on any other drilling is the top trigger switch is engraved and "snake like". I am a novice on this type of stuff, so I thank you for your help.

C. Adams Coln German Drilling, 2x 16 gauge, and one 9.3x 72mm?? rifle round, made in Coln Germany in 1870 here are some pics, was told it has silver inlaid in it in couple places and has Damascus Barrels.
Says C. Adams in Coln A/Rh. on top
Serial 4124
Says 4124 H on bottom of barrels with a couple emblems that I don't recognize, also has a "9" above an "X 47", on bottom of barrels.
4124 is also on the metal butt of the gun, along with a stamp of some type of bird with it's wings spread out.

Photos of gun Shared through google drive

Va, first off what a lovely piece!! The wood almost appears to have a coat of high gloss poly or varnish on it. Can you tell if that is correct? Most unusual....recoil pad(?) Or is it spaced out to lengthen the pull?

I'll let others vastly better informed than me comment on the maker. An unmarked German firearm from that era could almost be considered common. Many were not and it takes someone like Mike, Raimey, Axel or one of several other guys on this site to sort that out. At this point I don't believe I would consider it rare. I don't believe the serpentine selector is all that rare either as I see them quite frequently on the various auction sites and have one so equipped.

Unless you've done a chamber cast to determine the rifle cartridge and know it to be 9.3 X 72R I believe it is not chambered for that cartridge. If the stampings on the rifle barrel are what I think them to be it is for the 9 X 47R cartridge. About that time in history there was a few cartridges based on the 11.15 X 60R case, shortened to 47mm and necked down. I have a combination gun in 10.5 X 47R and have seen several at 9.5 X 47R and I believe 9 X 47R. My opinion will need to be confirmed, however. It's no different than what was done here in the US with the 30-06, shortening, necking up and down.

Obviously it's a black powder drilling and the Jones underlever is a very strong action. Another member, Diz, has done yeoman's work with "nitro for black" loads for Damascus barrels.

The "bird with its wings spread out" is the German Eagle.

As I said, it is a nice piece and I'll be watching to learn what others will say. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on the remainder of the stamps.

It does have a high gloss or varnish on it, the german eagle on the butt plate, looks like it could have a nazi symbol at the bottom of it. The butt pad is possibly an add on to make the gun longer and add protection from recoil??? but the original butt plate is on the back of it. The pad may be original I don't know. Thanks for clarifying the caliber of 9 x 47. I have never seen one in that caliber. I would like to know the approximate worth of it, if anyone knows much about it, Thanks guys.

It was made in Suhl by B�chsenmacher Franz Luck. The "Reichsadler" or Imperial Eagle with an circled L inside on the toeplate, was the trademark of Luck, M�hlplatz 4, Suhl. The concern was founded in 1847 when Franz Luck hung out his gunmaking shingle. His son Karl August Luck & grandson Wilhelm Edmund Luck (1857 - 1910) took the reins & continued for a time. The Crown over Fraktur/Gothic Letter(possibly L) may be the mechanic who brought the tubes to the state of completion. It would seem tha the lower tube was sourced from the Schilling forge. I have my doubts it was made in the 1870s. What is the weight of the drilling, 5-Pfund-Drilling?


Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I am having trouble with my computer and couldn't get the photos to come up,but from the one Raimey posted,I couldn't see proofmarks.This indicates to me that it may have been made before 1893.A chambercast and sluging the bore will settle the caliber question. A 9.3x72R chamber will be around .430" at the head area and a 9x47R(MB)will be about .520".You can eliminate one of them by measuring across the chamber.Of course,this says nothing about the case length.
Mike

http://www.ligafaktur.de/Schriften.html

Maybe Crown over F, nah, still resembles a Gothic / Fraktur L?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks everyone for their help, I added another 50~ pictures to the google drive folder in the link above. Please look and see what you think about the butt plate. I saw a similar Franz Luck gun with a stock similar to mine and it didn't have the extra rubber middle pad in between the plate so I took it off it was easy just unscrew take off put plate back on w/o rubber pad. Also I have included pictures showing the chamber measurements. The rim measurement was .563, the chamber was .458, and the end of the barrel where the projectile comes out is .361. Of course I didn't get the length of it though I probably could figure it out. There aren't any sold guns to go by for an estimate for price. What do Yall think? Unless you could find some similar guns, I couldn't find any. Thanks for your help again. Hopefully we can figure out the rifle round caliber. One thing I do have a question on is the imperial eagle on the butt looks like it is an "X" more than an "L", so I thought it might actually be a nazi symbol, what do Yall think?

Also what does the C. Adam in Coln A/Rh. Mean? It is engraved in silver on the top of the barrels on the rail.

Make a chamber cast of the rifle barrel chamber, picking up a bit of the bore in the process and remove all doubt.

Given the action and style of the piece and lack of proofs I agree with Mike it is pre-1893. 1893 is about 30 years before the advent of the Nazi party and it is more than likely the drilling is older than that. The buttplate numbered to the rest of the piece makes the possibility that it is a Nazi symbol nearly impossible. Just because something is old and unique doesn't make it rare and valuable.

Value is first of all subjective. Secondly it's exceedingly difficult to place a value on something without personal examination. Kind of like "I have a 1965 Corvair, what is it worth"? Thirdly, someone put on that coat of high gloss poly or varnish or whatever it might be which did nothing to add to the value. Many are frightened of Damascus barrels and the rifle cartridge is still unknown so that limits the market even more. Please don't take all that as any kind of an indictment, it is not so intended. Your pictures are great, I should be so capable!!!!! But there are still things a person needs to see and feel.

If you peruse the auction sites and watch at gun shows....and purchase a few over the years.... I believe you would find the range of the value of the drilling to be between around $1500 to maybe $2500 unless something comes to light that would make it rare and valuable. From what I see and the evidently uncommon cartridge I'd love to get my hands on one just to make the rifle shoot and shoot accurately...but I have a fondness for black powder cartridges and am demented that way...lol!