doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com H Leue Berlin Double Rifle - Looking for More Info

Ladies & Gentlemen!
Don't forget you have a historic doublegun. Nitropowders in the days of the youth of this gun have not been the same as today! So do not try to use highspeedloads from the present.
Der Ami: 118/35 marked under crown and U is describing the loads used for the proof at the Beschussamt! At this time, the first test and the 2nd test werde done with different powder loads and the bullet weight was the same. But it's not the load for using the gun in normal condition.
I always smile when i read this table down at the site: http://www.germanguns.com/tech.html
If you use the RWS .364 TMFK for propper hand loads try to get some of the S&B TMFK bullets. The copper mantle from the S&B is not as hard as the RWS bullet! ;-)And all the old expressguns will thank you! :-)

Sorry for my broken english, i need a lot of practice!
Martin

Herkulesdrilling,
The 118/35 is the bore diameter(not groove diameter nor bullet diameter)expressed in guage measurement(like shotguns).In my experience, this marking most ofter is found on rifles with about .358-.359"groove diameter.The "express" type bullet as used in 9,3x72R Norm.is made to be safe in these smaller barrels.
L3
To install the bushed firing pin, the one on the hammer will be cut off,a hole will be drilled/tapped into the breechface, and a bushing will be screwed in with the new firing pin trapped between it and the action.It's a little more involved, but this is a simple explanation.BTW what is the groove diameter of the barrels? 118/35 would not be expected on a 9.3x74R(unless rechambered from 9.3x72R or 9x58 1/2R,etc).
Mike

Ok that is about how I figured it, thanks for the description. I figured either a bushing inside on the hammers or the firing pin holes or on the breech face to support the cartridge/primers and prevent too great movement during firing.

The groove diameters I measured from the chamber casts were
.362 - left
.3625 - right

I want to confirm by slugging with a lead ball or cerrosafe further down the barrel.

I am also still working on getting some S&B ammo.

L3n4rd,
If the .362 groove diameters hold up, I am becoming more convinced that the rifle may have been rechambered from an older 9.3 cartridge.While,in my view,this shouldn't be done, it was done pretty often.The barrels on a double rifle are usually thick enough that it is not as bothersom as it would be in a drilling with a typically thin barrel.Since you said a pulled bullet enters a fired case,that is not a concern.You may have trouble getting it to shoot both barrels to the same(or close)point of impact.I noted the 2 shots you posted the photo of were fired from only 50 feet.Even though they were close together,it may be a different story at 100 yards.Bullet stability may also be a concern,since older 9.3 cartridges often used shorter bullets than the 9.3x74R,therefore may have slower twist.Whether these really are problems can only be determined by shooting it.If they are problems, they are not insurmountable.When you get the S&B ammo, it is important to hold the rifle as you would while hunting,fire both barrels very quickly,let them cool to ambient temp.between pairs of shots, and be able to id which shot came from which barrel(I use 2 targets).On the other hand, everything may work great. This is not to scare you, it is to let you know that if you need to,you can likely make it work out.
Mike

I'll try this time, I was just too darn excited to pay complete attention to all the little details! Good to know to fire both barrels as soon as possible one after the other; I definitely paused a bit between both shots on the first one.

IMO the barrels are quite thick and the chamber walls are as well, so for whatever that is worth, I'm not super concerned in that area.

I am also planning on trying to measure the twist rate of the rifling; was twist designed/designated in X twists per foot at the time this gun was manufactured?

I was also considering if the bore is too slim for an actual .366 diameter bullet, pulling x74 bullets then resizing via a push through sizer and reseating may alleviate any continuing pressure issues while also providing an easy and readily accessible way to load 'custom' ammo with out too much fuss or extra expense. Of course accuracy may be insurmountably effect by lengthening the bullet.

Also for a frame of reference, do you have any idea where the charge specified on the chambers stacks up in regards to hot loaded, middle of the road, or light loads?
3,5 g G.B.P./St.m.G.

Thanks for the info Martin, and the English was good! I'll also start looking for some RWS ammo now as another testing cartridge.

118,35 is the plug gauge diameter that would pass the whole length but there was a load associated with it in the early proof tables:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

L3n4rd,
The load on the barrel is the proof load and can't be compared to any duty loads.Twist in German rifles is now shown as 1 twist in x mm (ie 1 in 250mm).You can resize the .366" bullets to .362" if you want, but the reason I suggested trying the bullet in a fired case was to see if it would cause a great increase in pressures.I use .321" bullets in some rifles with .318" barrels, because they fit into a fired case.In another case,I size .321" to .318", because the .321" bullet won't fit into the fired case.This is short, because I'm having computer problems and this is the third try.
Mike

9,3X74,7R F�rster cartridge dims courtesy of Peter in Sweden.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ok I think I understand, I thought that slipping a .366 bullet into the case neck was to confirm brass OAL.

If I understand you correctly the method to this is, since the .366 bullet slips into a fired case means the the beginning of the rifling is wide enough to accept a bullet of .366 diameter. If it was too narrow and thus a different caliber/groove diameter, the case mouth would not be unable to expand all the way as there is not enough space in the chamber for it to expand and thus the case mouth would remain narrower than the bullet diameter after firing.