doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Are these liberals you guys talking about?

Don't forget the cripples, ...... outrageous!

No more my Brits than your Brits. Pete. Who do you think fought your Revolution, insurgents against the Crown?

Larry, my post encapsulates the idea: the West has reached a juncture where all the king's horses and all the king's men have little or no influence over alien and arbitrary forces capriciously controlling our lives.

The West owes the US. Iraq being a mess of its own making isn't the point. In January Ms Rice was saying the US was imposing a "new reality" on the Middle East. In February she and Mr. Bush were all smiley looking for friends.

We're making it up as we go, Canada no different from Britain and the US.

There must be an attitudinal change, and I said it couldn't happen overnight. Get US troops out of there and send in a multinational force---you name it, from a rejigged NATO or UN---to end sectarian violence.

The West must see the need to buy into it. France, Germany, Canada, Australia, New Zealand can't be seen as poodles genuflecting to Americans i.e. we’re taking arbitrary action out of US hands and placing it where it belongs.

Peoples respond to things as intangible as an ideal. No one likes the notion of behemoths or cadres of terrorists throwing their weight around. World policeman isn't America's job. Sacrifices in the name of humanity should be shared.

There's nothing new about peoples recognizing a need and changing their countries virtually overnight: FDR with the New Deal and getting behind Britain, the Europeans with the EU, NATO itself, South Africa, the rise of Russia since 1989.

I said earlier, things these days seem to change on a dime. My notion requires leadership, a passion and a plan. Unfortunately change usually doesn't come until we see rock bottom. We're slipping and sliding, close to that now.

Europe taking action when necessary . . . like against Hitler, before he invaded Poland? And that was well BEFORE they were used to sheltering under the American umbrella.

King, I'd like to see your idea implemented, but as a realist, I can't see it happening. Sarkozy elected in France, but even he doesn't see Iraq as France's battle. Brown to replace Blair in Great Britain, the likely result of which will be more British troops coming home rather than the reverse.

"Sacrifices in the name of humanity should be shared" ought to be the UN's motto--but it isn't. Not even NATO's.

Well, for two Browns (clan Lamont, "Neither Destroy nor Despise") anticipating something better than we've got now, how about this: World opinion just scuttled the President and Paul Wolfowitz. That's something new. Don't look back. Kind regards, King

If a bunch of intelegent guys like us can't agree on a good foriegn policy for the radical islamics how do you suppose a much larger and diverse body of souls can do it? I'm a hard liner just because it has not been demonstrated to me that defeat or appeasement accomplish anything. Its "pull up your socks boys because the world is a dangerous place and you've few friends out there."

King, if you're counting on the folks who "scuttled" Wolfowitz and the President to take action in Iraq, I'd say you have a long wait. Wolfowitz was in trouble from the get-go with his WB colleagues BECAUSE of Iraq. As far as they're concerned, it's his problem (and W's), and it's certainly not up to them to fix it. They're just waiting for a Democrat to be elected next year and pull us out of Iraq, which they see as the solution.

No, not as narrow as that, Larry. Hatchet men won't change anything. Neither will Democrats or Republicans, Greens, socialists, communists or Islam until there's a meeting of minds that we're all in this together. The US, British, Canadian military commanders have told us the way forward is more political than firepower. We can't shoot our way out of it.

"Send in"?!! Who's going to "send" whom into a guaranteed disaster? Get real, King. Your vaunted UN was unwilling to go into Iraq before it imploded - they skedaddled at the first sign of danger, and they sure as he[[ won't go back now. Bush's mythical "coalition" - a.k.a. "America and the Seven Dwarfs" - is dissolving as we speak. Your imaginary "multinational force" won't materialize. The UN can't even get its act together in Darfur, much less in Iraq.

We've stuck ourselves to this Iraq tar baby, our friends aren't dumb enough to take hold, and our critics are enjoying the spectacle - including no little schadenfreude from our neighbors to the north.

It is easy to identify King as a socialist. He has the same mindless ideal as Kerry suggesting our allies all get together to solve Iraq. What mindless,idealistic drivel. Let us step back so we don't get run over by the Euros running to help us in Iraq.

You can't blame the socialists for this mess, Pete, and believe me, Jack, I take no satisfaction from the hundreds of thousands of sacrifices made and more to come.

Why guaranteed disaster? Iraq wants the US out. It could accept help to establish security and essential services left out of the US occupation plan.

Your critics, comprising a majority of your country and Congress, aren't enjoying the spectacle any more than anyone else.