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#392876 - 02/04/15 09:58 PM .450 Express
montenegrin Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 1678
Loc: Slovenia
If a DR is marked: FOR ELEY'S .450 EXPRESS CTGE, is it likey BP? Smokeless would be marked NITRO or CORDITE, I suppose? Rifle was made sometime inbetween 1897 and 1904, SLE with Birmingham proof. Thanks for your input.

With kind regards,
Jani

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#392879 - 02/04/15 11:04 PM Re: .450 Express [Re: montenegrin]
AkMike1 Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 601
Loc: Anchorage
What does the proof marks say?

In those years it could have been either BPE,NfB or full Nitro.

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#392893 - 02/05/15 05:56 AM Re: .450 Express [Re: montenegrin]
montenegrin Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 1678
Loc: Slovenia
Mike,
Unfortunately I have only the information I gave, I do not know what are the proof marks (other that they are Birmingham before 1904).
With kind regards,
Jani

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#392895 - 02/05/15 06:47 AM Re: .450 Express [Re: montenegrin]
sharps4590 Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 543
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
That's right at the transition period. I would think one is going to have to see the proofs.
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#392909 - 02/05/15 08:57 AM Re: .450 Express [Re: montenegrin]
GETTEMANS Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 270
Loc: Belgium
Jani, I know about what you speak, I have also se that Lyon & Lyon.
lot nR 60 and if you look the starting price, I think it is a BP.
I wish you good luck if you want buy it. It is a very interesting and very nice made sidelock double rifle.
Marc.

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#394454 - 02/16/15 02:08 AM Re: .450 Express [Re: montenegrin]
WildCattle Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 533
Loc: Northern California
more than likely, it is a BPE gun.
The weight should help you figure it out.
Below 4kg it is a BPE, over 5kg is probably a NE.
Yet another option would be a NFB, somewhere in between.
If I understand right, only a .303 would be marked "NITRO PROVED" in that time frame.
WC-


Edited by WildCattle (02/16/15 02:10 AM)

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#394494 - 02/16/15 11:03 AM Re: .450 Express [Re: WildCattle]
Der Ami Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/04/12
Posts: 3385
Loc: East Alabama
I don't believe a gun would be proofed "NFB",it would be proofed as BPE.Nitro powder ammo loaded for black powder rifles would be called "Nitro for Black".
Mike

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#394571 - 02/17/15 12:56 AM Re: .450 Express [Re: Der Ami]
WildCattle Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 533
Loc: Northern California
I beg to differ.
not only there was a NFB proof (expressed in cordite and bullet grains), but there was a specific Kynoch and Eley line of ammo.
The loading was typically stiffer than true BPE with a bit heavier bullets and a bit faster velocity, although no where close to full nitro velocity.
For instance, the .500 3 1/4" was loaded around 440 grs at close to 1800 fps IIRC.
I guess the official name was "Light Cordite" rather than NFB and many of those rounds have LC stamped on the case.
Of course, this is not to be confused with the reduced "tropical" loads, which is a different story entirely.
In order to stay safe, stick with the proof load stamped on the gun.
If it only shows something like 450EX, you should only assume a regular BP load. Anything more would be an unsafe assumption.
Actually one of my pet peeve is auction descriptions routinely describing NE loads inappropriately for BPE guns. Better for gun values, but terrible for body parts...
Best regards,
WC-

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#394589 - 02/17/15 10:48 AM Re: .450 Express [Re: WildCattle]
Der Ami Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/04/12
Posts: 3385
Loc: East Alabama
WildCattle,
We are mostly in agreement.The ammo loaded with cordite or nitro powder for use in BP proofed rifles is the "Nitro for Black" ammo.The NFP ammo was loaded to essentially duplicate the black powder ballistics,so that it would regulate in the rifles as closely as possible.The "Tropical" or "Light Cordite" ammo is different in that it is intended for use in rifles proofed for "nitro",in areas where conditions may change the burning rate of the powder(cordite)and increase the pressures.Ammo was not "proofed" per se, it was loaded to not exceed the proof of the rifles.
Mike

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