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Sidelock
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Some video images. Note all these could have been done using water powered machinery.

Trip hammer http://www.youtube.com/v/KsamMk8Ojf4

Bellows http://www.youtube.com/v/hBicL-jaZII

Twisting damascus http://www.youtube.com/v/YQTobu6Ah9w

Pete

PeteM #76648 01/09/08 10:54 AM
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PeteM:

Regarding Damascus: any source(maker, machineshop) for the equipment? When in the mechanized timeline does this landup?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Raimey,

Most of it was being done in the rolling mills, for the fabrication and initial welding of the billet. I know there were machines for twisting the iron, but do not know if the rolling mill or the barrel maker was doing it.

The final steps of wrapping it around a mandrel, could have been done by machine, but I have found no proof of that yet.

I believe that by 1870 the mills were producing the forged billets and the twisting was mechanized in both England and Belgium. I have some patent numbers that I have tried to search for, but can not seem to get results with the Beglian patent database. It does not appear to go back that far even when I provide the patent number, applicant description and holder's name.

Pete

PeteM #76668 01/09/08 12:33 PM
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Pete,
Somewhere in my collection of files from others on this bbs, I had a picture of a machine that wound the ribbon of damscus on a mandrel.

I know there is a lot of opinion that all damascus was hand forged, but some of the later damascus has such a consistant spiral wrap and straight line of the forgeweld of the composite ribbon that I really think striking the material with a hammer would leave the forgeweld line with irregularities very visible.

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Oh Pete and Chuck: you're in trouble now!
Somewhere back in this 53 page thread, Pete posted an illustration of a winding machine.

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The British proof house tests specified "mechanical damascus".

Heuse-Limone talks about the rolling mills installing special rollers to handle the damascus billets.

Chuck if you can find the image, please post it. The tradition tool was the perrot, a blade makers tool. It hardly remained unchanged for 300 years.



Patent 223432 of "Monsieur Florent Heuse-Bovy" for a process and device mechanically carrying out the synchronic torsion of metals.



Here a Belgian maker with a British patent.
Belgian, Eugene Joris, 1894, A New Process of Manufacturing Damascus Cannons and Tubes.
http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB189401981&F=0&QPN=GB189401981

Pete

PeteM #76686 01/09/08 01:37 PM
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Pete,
that lower image is the one I was thinking of.

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Pete M-reference your post a few pages back about Siyaqat: It is a form of Arabic calligraphy. The Ottomans (Osmanli) were Turks, not Arabs. Some of the people that they conquered and subjugated were Arabs, and they did use some Arabic words, but most court and palace records and communications were conducted in Persian, using Arabic script such as Siyaqat for the chancery. For the uninformed or uninitiated, we use Arabic numerals for our mathematics, but the system or "language" is base 10.

If you have more detailed information about the records located in Istanbul, pleased advise and I will do what I can to research this at the local level.

skatr2

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skatr2,

You are correct of course. I modified my previous post to remove any error. I incorrectly read a description of Siyaqat. Thank you for pointing that out.

I have been reading "Guns for the Sultan. Military Power and the Weapons industry in the Ottoman Empire" by Gábor Ágoston.
He points out the wealth of information residing in the chancery records. I wish I knew how best to make use of your very kind offer.

Pete

PeteM #77271 01/12/08 01:07 PM
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The end of the damascus trade.

The technology to build damascus was mothered by the necessity to produce light barrels capable of handling the longitudinal and axial stress of gun powder ignition. This was in an age when it was common to produce a barrel by bending a flat piece of iron around a mandrel and welding it along it's entire length. The combination of iron and steel in tandem with the spiral wrapping produced a significantly stronger and safer firearm.

The reasons the trade ended are multi-faceted. While the destruction of the rolling mills, barrel production centers and decimated work force inflicted by WWI are primary, the trade would have ended eventually.

The change was rooted deep within the fabric of western Europe.

The industrial revolution progressed. Metallurgical developments produced stronger steels. Railroads were built. As the technology to produce stronger steels rose, so too did unionism and the shattering of the guild system.

For many decades, the owners had ruled like barons over their workers. They saw no reason to support state sponsored programs such as schools, health care and the like. They found the federal government intrusive and preferred to cling to their own regional ethnicity's. For a time this view was shared by the labor force. Eventually, as the owners increasing used machines, the workers where displaced. The guild could provide the training needed to learn a trade. The small cottage worker found themselves living in more urban setting with decreasing ability to control their own work habits.

As early as 1849 the S.S.M.O.A.L. or Société de Secours mutuels des Ouvriers Armuriers Liège ( Mutual Aid Society of Liege Arms Workers ) was formed. This early mutual aid society was largely geared to helping workers with things like housing, food, etc.

In 1886 the town of Liege called a meeting of the owners. They had a proposal for them. An establishment of a school to train workers. They suggested that the town would help fund such a school. They would seek funding from the federal government. In addition, they wanted the owners support. The owners drafted a response. They saw no need to educate their labor force. After all, the guild system provided all the education that was required.

One of the 1st truly modern firearms makers in Belgium was Fabrique National. FN was originally founded by a group of owners / investors, Henri Pieper being one, in 1889. It was based on the most modern technology. Large tracts of land were acquired. Huge factories rose, building after building. Labor was needed. There was a rush to the doors as people sought work. FN was looking at a new economy of firearms production. Before a gunmaker-owner simply set a rate for which he purchased parts. He could even pay cottage workers to do the final assembly. Guns per hour, became a new phrase on the owners lips. The work force suffered and finally walked out on strike in 1895. Strikes were not unheard of in Belgium, but were a rare thing for the arms industry. At this time the U.F.A Union des Fabricants d'Armes U.F.A ( Union of Arms Workers ) approached the officials of Liege. They lent their support and the L'école d'Armurerie de Liège ( School of Liege Gun makers ) was founded in 1897.

A sense of national pride was growing in Belgium. With the advent of the railroad, relatively rare and exotic commodities were becoming common place. Oranges, lemons, spices, clothing were now available. People had the bicycle as a means of transport. Things were looking up. The only problem was money. To purchase all this took cash. The owners were staunch. They had paid your father 2 francs per barrel, what made you think your barrels were worth 3 francs? Things came to a head in 1908. The barrel makers guild found themselves locked out. The people of Nessonvaux and Liege opened their hearts and their doors. They took in the children of the barrel makers guild and provided them with food and shelter.

One of the voices of change was Léon Troclet. He supported the workers cause. He called for even more schooling. Léon Troclet was one of the founders of the Belgium Labor Party and of the F.G.T.B. , La Fédération générale du travail de Belgique ( The General Federation of Belgian Labour ), one the largest unions in Belgium.

The strikes continued unfortunately. In 1912, Lochet factory was embroiled in a strike.

Making hammers at home.


The 1905 celebration of the 75th Anniversary of the Republic of Belgium. The guilds walk in the parade.


Factory workers.


Pete

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