doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Poor man's paradox

Has anyone else had reasonable success using rifles choked tubes in a side-by-side to create a poor-man's paradox? A friend has had good luck doing this with a Zabala 10-gauge. I'm just wondering if it is possible to get 2- 3-inch groups at 50 yards with, say, round balls of Fosburys loaded in Magtech brass shells with either black or smokeless. My guess is the wild card is how well the barrels are regulated.
Looking at using some sort of double with Greener crossbolt for this.

Hi Bill, I posted on your other post too.
I dont know much about this, but am mighty interested in Bore rifles that throw big blue whistlers
With rifled choke tubes, I have heard that there is a danger of the threads blowing out as the bullet slams into the rifling...also the prob of regulation....I just haven't seen much positive feed back when the rifled tube has been tossed out to chew on, thats all.
Most seem to go with sleeving a double with rifled tubes & regulating it like a regular rifle.
Like I said over at the other section..A nice single would be fun (Cheaper) & alot easier to regulate...just get the sights onto the hole your making in the target,lol.
If by chance the two holes are close before regulation, I believe I have heard of people putting a sight on each bbl.
Keep us posted Bill.
I have a modern NEF/H&R 20 bore single rifled slug gun, which I cast Balls for...it very accurate, but woefully ugly
cheers mate
Franc

The 10 bore paradox guns were big bore dangerous game guns. 925gr bullet @ 1500fps. Lots of recoil in a 13 lb gun.

10 bore paradox muzzle

Franc, a rifled NEF slug gun is certainly the quickest and least expensive route toward throwing big chunks of lead down range accurately. It is indeed too bad that they are so homely.
PM, I have not worked with 10 bore, but have had two of the Pedersoli Kodiak SXS percussion rifles in .72. I will agree that 150 grains of FFg under an 835-grain Fosbury slug will command one's attention. I cannot recall what this load chronographed.
Graeme Wright reports the original BP Paradox ballistics as 750-grain Fosbury at 1000, with the later smokeless "Magnum" giving 1300-1500, and the Westley-Richards Explora Magnum a 730-grain slug at 1500. Plenty of punch on both ends in 12 gauge.
Just be fun to have some sort of cartridge side-by-side that would reliably put its pumpkin balls on a paper plate at 50 yards.
That 10-bore Paradox seems to have the classic ratchet-style rifling at the muzzles.

The 10 bore paradox = 220gr BP and a 925gr bullet. The later Holland smokeless load gave the same ballistics using pistol cordite.

I once owned a gun built by Wm. Evans that was regulated and proofed for the Westley round. The recoil was brutal. I was shooting it once amongst a group of guys and we all agreed that the full nitro .577 3" with 750grain bullets was much more pleasant to shoot than the paradox gun. The thing literally kicked like a mule.

SKB, how much did your Evans weigh?

Most guns chambered for the WR SME cartridge weigh between 7.5 and 8.5 lbs. The magic of this combo is not only in the barrels but the loading of the cartridge.

PM: Just bloody lovely!

If memory serves, 8&1/4 lbs

The thing I would like to know is what's the best donor shotgun gauge to used for this project?Also who can do this project?

Al, I am leaning toward 12 gauge just because of the availability of affordable components -- especially Magtech brass shells. Also, should I attempt to go with rifled choke tubes, these are widely available in 12 gauge. Not so in 10.

Good luck Bill, n keep us posted mate
cheers
franc

Would someone PM the spec. For poor man paradoxI have new in box Spanish
Made 10ga. Double that would like to have it rifled 10ga.

Just won a Gunbroker auction for my donor round ball gun -- a Husqvarna Model 51 in 12 bore, with hammers. Now to select a set of suitable sights and find a smith who can shorten the barrels and remove a dent. I will start with trying to get round balls to regulate, and may also try to find some Brenneke-style slugs to work with.

I just bought a Rossi 20 ga, with oddly enough, a Greener bolt, that put slugs at 20 yds about 1" apart at first test. Rt is Imp Cyl, left is Mod, both barrels landed slightly left, using the rib to center the bead. Seriously considering rifling the left choke with my homemade rifling cutter on my old 50" Atlas lathe--lathe is only used to polish barrels now. Making a stupidly fancy walnut stock for it now--the factory was birch, and I'm too old to shoot an ugly gun. Winter project--yee haw!

XS: You're a fortunate chap to A) have an Atlas lathe capable of rifling, and B) having the skills to make fancy walnut stock. Please post results!

Well, I have the Husqvarna Model 51 in hand. I need to have a dent raised in the right barrel, and as the muzzle of the right barrel is damaged, I feel better about have the barrels cut to 26 inches. The gun is relatively light, so I believe I will start with round balls and black powder. Need to find or fabricate a very simple shallow-vee rear sight to go with the front bead.

xs,
How about showing photos of the set up for your Atlas lathe.
Mike

What I did was fasten the rifling cutter(one groove) on a threaded rod, one end of which had an epoxy slug molded in a .45 cal junk barrel. The .45 cal barrel is chucked in the atlas, with an indexing pin, and power off. The shotgun barrel is clamped to the tool post base. As the threaded rod is pushed thru the barrel, the epoxy slug makes it rotate. The index pin is pulled to let the lathe chuck rotate for the next groove, when the cutter is out of the choke section of the shotgun barrel. Quite time consuming, since the cutter only cuts about .002" per pull, and the cutter needs to be shimmed out for another .002" after the first 6 grooves are cut. Much chip clearing every cut, even though the cut is about 2" long, in the choke part of the barrel. Howe's Gunsmithing has a diagram of rifling cutter construction.

XS,
Interesting.When you say "indexing pin", do you mean the pin that fits into the indexing holes in an Atlas lath's bull gear ? Do you use a milling attachment to clamp the barrel, in place of the compound slide or is it rigged some way to the tool post? If you index on the bull gear, is there some reason not to cut 4 or even 3 grooves, or was it personal preference? Is there a handle on the threaded rod to pull it by hand, or do you pull it under power some way? It seems like we have pretty similar interests( I guess so, or we wouldn't be on the same forum).
Mike

Yes, the indexing pin on the bull gear. I suppose I could cut down on the work by only cutting four grooves. Used the tailstock screw to push the rod with cutter thru, since the rifling only is in the choke. Used a padded drill press vise bolted to the cross slide to hold the barrel, shimmed to center the bore.

XS,
Thanks,that is a good explanation of an inventive process.
Mike