doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sir Joseph Whitworth fluid compressed steel

Seem to recall "Jesopps" fluid steel same process no doubt after the Whitworth patent expired .

1cdog, any pics of that Greener you mentioned??
Sounds like a high end Gun....love to see it
franc

I think it is "Jessops". BSA used this material.

Franc, I don't know how to post pictures to this Forum. You can PM me with your E-mail address and I will E-mail you a picture.

Thanks!

Raimey, that may be a translation issue. The standard French term is "acier comprime". The "pressed" part is usually dropped when expressed in English.

There's an interesting story about Vickers tubes in Vic Venters' book "Gun Craft", chapter entitled "'Best' Barrelmaking". H&H was unhappy with what they were getting from Vickers in the mid-60's. They eventually bought the Vickers machinery, moved it to their factory, and began making their own barrels.

I was under the impression that Whitworth barrels were considered superior to Krupp. At least Lefever used Whitworth barrels on the very highest grade guns like the Optimus while Krupp barrels were frequently found on lower grade guns in the B&C range. This may have been in a time period before the era you are referring to.

Interesting that Krupp was not included in the 1891 Birmingham Proof House Report.
Period reports of tensile strength:
Siemens Open Hearth 26-28 long tons = 58,000-62,700 psi
Whitworth 29.5-30 long tons = 66,000-67,200 psi
Krupp Open Hearth - 70,000 - 80,000
Krupp Nickel Steel was developed about 1890 - 92,500
http://books.google.com/books?id=n6NPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA199&lpg

Does anyone know the actual method used to compress fluid steel within the ingot mold? Since fluids are relatively incompressible, and I think it would be problematic to compress molten steel anyway, I wonder just how Sir Joseph Whitworth and others accomplished this.

I am familiar with "Capped Heats" where molten steel is poured into the ingot mold. Then bags of additives called rare earth were tossed into the molds on top of the molten steel. Then, a heavy cap was placed by the overhead ladle crane, on top of the mold opening to seal it. I was told that the rare earth degassed the steel and caused gas pockets and impurities within the steel to rise to the top. I was also told this was a somewhat dangerous process because pressure would build up within the capped ingot mold, and sometimes they would blow up. I saw this process when I worked in the Electric Furnace Dept. of a steel mill for a short time after college. It sticks in my mind because I was assigned by the boss to put on a set of woolies and stand by on the pouring platform to substitute for anyone who got "f***ed-up if a cap blows." Thankfully, there were no explosions that night.

"As an interesting side note, shortly after the turn of the century, Whitworth decided that they would like to make more money on their barrels. So they started to reduce the shipment size to their main customer, LC Smith. After LC got very short on barrels, Whitworth announced a price increase. LC had started looking around and Krupp sent them some fine (better than Whitworth) barrels at a cheaper price. LC used this lever to REDUCE the price they had been paying Whitworth instead of paying more. They continued to use Krupp as an option".


"I was under the impression that Whitworth barrels were considered superior to Krupp. At least Lefever used Whitworth barrels on the very highest grade guns like the Optimus while Krupp barrels were frequently found on lower grade guns in the B&C range. This may have been in a time period before the era you are referring to."
_________________________
Great-Great Grandson of D.M. Lefever

I've heard the above story of the Hunter Brothers/Whitworth Steel Company barrel tube "controversay" many times over the years; but have yet to find any hard evidence that this tale is indeed fact, other than inclusive evidence recorded in period company catalogs. The Hunter Arms Company only listed Krupp Steel barrels as an avialable "option" on their hightest cataloged models (Monogram, A2, and A3) from 1900-1905; and there is no mention of Krupp barrels being available, or as a cataloged option afterwards. Whitworth Steel barrel tubes were always standard on these high-grade models UNLESS a customer special ordered otherwise. Although I'm sure there are other examples, the only highest grade Smith gun I've seen to date with Krupp barrels was a 16 gauge A2 shipped with one set of Whitworth and one set of Krupp barrels; certainly an odd request. There may indeed have been a dispute with Withworth, and Hunter may have cataloged and used some Krupp barrels to demonstrate the seriousness of any alleged threat, but threatened action was all it was, as Whitworth tubes were never cataloged as anything but standard on these highest grades. And I've also wondered about Hunter Arms being Whitworth Steel's largest customer? If you include every A2, A3, and Mongram Grade Smith gun ever produced, including Mongram Grade guns produced thru the end of production in 1950 and all those examples made with Damascus barrels; you count less than 500 guns. If Hunter Arms actually was their largest customer, Whitworth Steel tube production was pitifylly small, Hunter Arms produced more highest grade double guns than any other American maker. As to price, and although I'm yet to discover maufacturer cost of a set of Whitworth tubes, Krupp tubes were always much cheaper than WHitworth tubes, as I've seen Krupp barrel tubes on $50 Grade 3 SAC guns and lower end Flues Ithaca models. Maybe the Germans were much more efficient that the English at producing steel, but I suspect there is little to no difference in strength qualities between the two.

And contrary to the above statement, Uncle Dan did not always use Whitworth Steel tubes on his very finest pieces; and prime example of that fact are the two "Uncle Dan" Grade D.M. Lefever guns featuring Krupp barrels and bearing his name As I recall, on at least one of those guns (don't have pics at hand just now) Krupp Steel is boldly inlaid in gold atop the barrels.

And one interesting side note to my Smith gun/Krupp steel associated research came from the discovery of the last A2 Grade Smith gun ever produced; made and shipped in 1916, 4 years after the last A2 catalog listing. In the case of this gun barrel steel type was noted in the shipping record; information almost never found recorded in the shipping ledgers. With this gun the barrel steel entry was listed as Krupp, while the Monogram entry underneath was recorded as Whitworth; and at some point after original shipment, this A2 was returned to Hunter for the fitting of an additional set of barrels and forend. When I examined the gun, all evidence of this gun having ever been produced with Krupp barrels was gone; both barrel sets were engraved instead "Monogram Steel" (this same Monogram Steel moniker is subsequently found on later Monogram Grade Smith guns). Obviously the original owner specified Krupp barrels for whatever his reason; and now, of course, there's no way to know for sure, but I theorize the gun was originally shipped sans the standard Krupp Steel trademarks because of the anti-German sentiment generated by WWI.