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Forums10
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Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 166 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 166 Likes: 7 |
Hello mates,sorry to disturb you! I have a sxs Chas Osborne 12 gauge shotgun and i send it over to gunsmith for repairing since i wasn't happy with the pattern of the shotgun.After 2 months the gunsmith kindly informed me that,the barrels were .37 thou and .44 thou.After, they have bored and regulated the barrels to 3/4 and Full(ie .30 thou and .40 thou). This is exactly what the gunsmith wrote me in their e-mail.
Can any of you gents explain me what does this mean in particular?
All the best!!
Kem
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 199
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 199 |
Sounds like your man has merely opened the chokes from the original 37 & 44 thou to 30 and 40 thou.
Thats a fairly basic procedure but 'regulation' is an entirely different ballgame where you are looking at the percentage of the shot load in a 30" circle at say 30 yards, or whatever you decide, using a specific cartridge, shot size etc. As a rule of thumb 3/4 choke should equate to 65% (shot within the 30" circle) and Full choke 70% within the circle.
Honing the chokes to 3/4 & full may (or may not) give these rsults with your gun & chosen cartridge, its very much a trial and error job. I doubt if anyone is lucky enough to get these things bang on.
I am sure someone will come along to explain this better than I.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 82
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 82 |
Regulating a shot gun is purely about specifics.
To shoot a predetermined percentage pattern at a set distance with particular cartridge .
EG. To shoot 70% within a 30" circle at 40 yards using a fibre wadded Winchester "Game" No 6 shot .
The gun will be fired several times and then have the chokes opened if the pattern is too tight . It is a matter of trial and patience that can take time , but with modern cartridges being very consistent most guns with standard bored chokes will shoot reasonable patterns . It is the older guns that may need to have choke cones as well as choke bored to give you what you want
Regulating a shotgun is not about where the gun shoots no matter what any one else tells you , that is down to the user to learn and take into account when calculating lead .
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147 |
Much of the rest of the world's knowledgeable doublegun builders (shotgun and rifle) and smiths use the term "regulation" to refer to where the individual barrels deliver their payload in relation to each other. What is strived for is that both barrels shoot to the same point of impact at a certain distance. gunman, in his above post, seems not to ascribe to this, preferring to relate regulation to pattern percentages at a certain distance. A simple search of the internet for "barrel regulation" will provide an abundance of evidence, and information, about how barrels are regulated to shoot to the same point of impact. Double rifles are much more finicky about this, most having to be used with a particular load in order to deliver bullets to the same POI.
If a shotgun is regulated to shoot both barrels to the same point at, say 30 yards, when manufactured by the maker, it will usually continue to do so with the chokes opened up, providing that the smith who does the work is knowledgable enough to pilot the choke reamer with the bore axis. Nonetheless, he should check for regulation before and after the work is done, as a matter of professionalism. There is a chance that the barrels were not properly regulated when he received the gun, and some will test fire it before doing the work to see what they are working with. Sadly, many gunsmiths don't care about such critical details. Better doublegun smiths do care, tho'. There are several who post on here that have very high standards for their work.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105 |
Much of the rest of the world's knowledgeable doublegun builders (shotgun and rifle) and smiths use the term "regulation" to refer to where the individual barrels deliver their payload in relation to each other. What is strived for is that both barrels shoot to the same point of impact at a certain distance. gunman, in his above post, seems not to ascribe to this, preferring to relate regulation to pattern percentages at a certain distance. A simple search of the internet for "barrel regulation" will provide an abundance of evidence, and information, about how barrels are regulated to shoot to the same point of impact. Double rifles are much more finicky about this, most having to be used with a particular load in order to deliver bullets to the same POI.
If a shotgun is regulated to shoot both barrels to the same point at, say 30 yards, when manufactured by the maker, it will usually continue to do so with the chokes opened up, providing that the smith who does the work is knowledgable enough to pilot the choke reamer with the bore axis. Nonetheless, he should check for regulation before and after the work is done, as a matter of professionalism. There is a chance that the barrels were not properly regulated when he received the gun, and some will test fire it before doing the work to see what they are working with. Sadly, many gunsmiths don't care about such critical details. Better doublegun smiths do care, tho'. There are several who post on here that have very high standards for their work.
SRH That's also how I interpret regulation. Makes little difference what percentages your gun throws if the patterns don't go where they're supposed to. Patterning a shotgun for point of impact (POI) is actually a 2 step process. First, you have to make sure the gun shoots where it's supposed to, which you do by aiming it (some people do so from a rest of some sort) to determine that the pattern is centered on your aim point. If the barrels are "properly regulated", the patterns will hit where you're aiming the gun. The second step is to make sure that the gun fits the shooter. If it doesn't, the pattern won't end up where it's supposed to, even if the barrels are properly regulated. (To paraphrase OJ's lawyer, when you're shooting at a moving target: "If the gun don't fit, you will not hit.") That involves mounting and firing without "aiming", but rather pointing the gun as you would at a clay target or bird in flight. You may then have to make stock adjustments--drop or cast--to make sure that the gun's fit is also properly "regulated" so that the patterns end up where you're looking when you mount and fire at a moving target. Getting the appropriate % of shot in a pattern at 40 yards is a question of choke regulation, not barrel regulation. As Stan points out, if the gunsmith doesn't mess things up, opening choke shouldn't impact barrel regulation. The pattern should stay in the same place, but with fewer pellet strikes in the 30" circle.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 199
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 199 |
There appears to be 2 definitions of 'regulation' in play. Certainly poi for both double rifles & shotguns was perhaps the prime use. Howevever in the case of the op, he had a patterning problem which was 'perhaps' remedied by his gunsmith adjusting the chokes. Nothing said about moving the poi, or for that matter he did not appear to claim that there was a poi problem.
In my limited experience adjusting chokes to give the desired pattern has been called regulation, patterning, and plating. With 'regulation by far the most common term.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 82
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 82 |
Gunman . That's me has been involved in the building /rebuilding of double guns for 45 year I feel I am qualified to make an informed comment as to what is correct and what is fantasy written by people who have never worked on or had any experience of gun making .
Shotgun barrels on a side by side are made so the tubes at the muzzle touch and are in parallel to the centres at the breech in a horizontal plain .
To make a double side by side that shoots over lapping patterns at 40 yard you will need to have the muzzle's spaced about 3/8" with a rib that stand 1/2" high of the tubes , work it out mathematically if you want , making a shot gun look like a double rifle .
I am sorry if this goes against what you would like to believe but as Granny said the truth often stings.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,964 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,964 Likes: 89 |
I think I see what you're driving at, Gunman. Continuing the thought, wouldn't it be easier to regulate a O/U than a SXS?
When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 166 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 166 Likes: 7 |
Well i thank every1 thats trying to explain but,can somebody explain me what happened exactly to the gun in question  ? All the best, Kem
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 82
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 82 |
Yes , some O/Us have spacers between the muzzles for this reason as with a higher ribs .Some tests I did showed that a B25 for example shot high on the bottom barrel but flat with the top as did several other modern production guns , so fitting a higher rib split the difference so to speak . Shoot solid slugs and see, a friend did , hit the mark top but shot over the top with the bottom
Side by sides will shoot on average , Right , high and left of centre at 25yards the opposite with the left . Its the nature of the gun . To those who argue that the barrel noses/muzzle's are altered so as to make a gun shoot to "point of aim " how do you do that to a gun with brazed ribs ?
No body ever sat down and worked it out. Barrel making just continued in progression from the first double flint locks , I doubt Messer Purdey , Smith , Fox or Greener even gave it a thought .
Last edited by gunman; 05/04/14 11:57 AM.
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