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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5
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Joined: Mar 2012
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Im looking for information on thomas woodward and the express gun works bath street birmingham ,i have a spiral spring gun with the mechanism mounted on the lock plates ,it was made about 1883 ,and was sold by j .beattie and co of london ,his name is on ovals let in to the action ,with T .WOODWARD EXPRESS GUN WORKS on the rib.
The gun has a new nitro proof on the original damascus barrels .
any information would be great.

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I wrote quite bait about this chap and this action in both my books.

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Here is the IGC info on Thomas Woodward:

Name Thomas Woodward
Address1 10 Steelhouse Lane
Address2 7 Bath Street
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & pistol maker
Other Address
Dates 1866-1908
Notes

There were many people named Woodward in the Birmingham gun trade, some originally from the town of Bath in Somerset but most appear untraceable. Thomas Woodward was not, as has been reported, the son of Benjamin Woodward of Birmingham and, although there may have been a relationship, none has been found.
Thomas Woodward (Thomas (I) was the son of John, a plater, and Sarah Woodward, a haberdasher. He was born in 1831 and recorded in the 1841 census, aged 10 years, living with his family in William Street.The 1851 census records him living at 35 Islington with his parents and other family members, he was described as a gun maker. The 1861 census does not appear to record Thomas (I), who may have been elsewhere on the night of the census, but his wife, Elizabeth (b.1832 in Birmingham) was recorded living in Barker Street with their children, Thomas (Thomas (II) b.1855)), John (b.1857), Kate (b.1859) and Frank (b.1860). Also recorded was Elizabeth's brother, James Woodward.

In 1866 Thomas (I) was recorded as a gun maker at 10 Steelhouse Lane (these premises were also occupied by J W Laird), but he may have traded from about 1864 because on 21 December 1864 a T Woodward registered patent No. 3165 for a hinged rising breech block with a thumb operated extractor. In 1866 Thomas (I) and G Fallows registered patent No. 1489 for a drop-down barrel breech-loader with extractors. In the 1871 census Thomas (I) and Elizabeth were recorded living at 10 Steelhouse Lane with four other children, Ellen (b.1863), Minnie (b.1866), James W (b.1868) and Agnes W (b.1870).

Thomas (I) was obviously highly thought of in Birmingham's gun making circles because in 1873 he became a partner with others in Abingdon Works (Ltd). On 17 February 1876 Thomas (I) registered patent No. 651 for an under-lever cocking shotgun which he named "The Acme", a top safety and a rebounding lock. The gun seems to have been the best quality of all his guns at the time and an improved Model No. 2 was advertised as "The Only Hammerless Gun". It was certainly one of the first hammerless guns but it was not the only one. On 30 August 1878 Thomas Woodward and David Bentley registered patent No. 3447 for an improvement to Thomas' patent No. 651 of 1876. On 21 June 1880 T Woodward and T Woodward registered patent No. 2505 for an action which could be cocked on opening, closing or by means of a lever.

The 1881 census records Thomas (I) and Elizabeth living at 19 Soho Road, Handsworth, with all their children including another daughter, Edith W (b.1874). The 1881 census also records Thomas (II) who, in 1876, had married Fanny Amelia (nee Cartwright b.1856 in Birmingham, daughter of a jeweller). They were living at 22 Anglesey Street, Aston Manor with their children, Fanny (b.1877), Ada (b.1878) and Thomas(b.1881).

On 9 July 1881 T Woodward and T Woodward patented a top lever cocking hammer-less action with safety sears (No. 3027), and on 18 May 1882 T Woodward registered patent No. 2344 which referred to 651 of 1876 and was for an opening cocking action with coil springs one version of which was named the "Acme". The patentee was probably the father rather than the son. On 7 February 1883 T Woodward registered patent No. 687 for a closing cocking action with a rib extension bolting mechanism. On 7 August 1883 T Woodward registered patent No. 3845 an action which cocked the mainspring on closing and was locked by the top lever and rib extension. This patent referred to 651 of 1876. On 2 April 1887 another patent (No. 4920) by a Thomas Woodward was for an improved ejector mechanism, this may have been Thomas (II).

In 1887 Thomas (I) moved to 7 Bath Street. On 26 March 1889 another patent (No. 5159) was for ejectors. This patent may have been registered by Thomas (II). Thomas (I) appears to have traded up to 1888 to 1890 when he appears to have died. The firm may have been in financial difficulties because it closed and Thomas (II) moved to live at 196 Uttoxeter Road, Derby, where he was recorded in the 1891 census as a gunsmith. He may well have been working for Charles Rosson who also lived in Uttoxeter Road and patented an ejector mechanism in 1889. In 1892 Thomas (II) joined Holland & Holland as manager of their new factory in London (see Harris Holland for Thomas (II)'s later patents).

Thomas and Fanny were recorded in the 1901 census living at 69 Ashburnham Road, Willesden, London. Thomas (II) described himself as a gun maker's manager.

This is the information IGC has for James Beattie:

Name James Beattie
Other Names J & H Beattie; James Beattie & Son; J Beattie & Co
Address1 43 Upper Marylebone Street
Address2 52 Upper Marylebone Street
Address3 52 Upper Marylebone Street and 205 Regent Street
Address4 205 and 223 Regent Street
Address5 205 Regent Street
Address6 104 Queen Victoria Street
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & percussion cap maker
Other Address
Dates 1832-1894
Notes

James Beattie was born in 1793 in Chilton, Buckinghamshire. In 1832 he was recorded as a gun maker and percussion cap maker at 43 Upper Marylebone Street. In 1836 he bought the business of Collinson Hall and moved to his premises at 52 Upper Marylebone Street. In 1841 he opened an additional shop at 223 Regent Street. In 1842 he married Sarah Ann (b.1819 in Marylebone). In 1846 the 52 Upper Marylebone Street shop closed and another was opened at 205 Regent Street.

James advertised his business in Bell's Life in London: "Gun and Pistol Repository, 205 Regent Street, next door to the Cosmorama, Gentlemen proceeding to India and the Colonies are invited to inspect the stock of Double and Single Barrel Guns (a variety with extra rifle barrels to fit the same stock) the shooting of which have been regulated with the greatest care".

In 1847 James and his brother Henry formed a partnership, J & H Beattie, and traded from both 223 and 205 Regent Street. The partnership lasted only about 18 months, Henry left, retired or died in 1848, and the firm's name reverted to James Beattie trading at 205 Regent Street only. The 1851 census records James living at 205 Regent Street with his wife and three daughters. The 1861 census records James as a 68 year old gun maker at 205 Regent Street with Sarah Ann, another daughter and a son, James Frederick (b.1860).

In 1864 the firm was reportedly re-named James Beattie & Son but James Frederick was only 3 years old. As James and Sarah Ann had married in 1842 and the first of their daughters was born in 1847, it is possible that they had a son in about 1843 and he would have been 21 in 1864. The 1871 census records James and Sarah Ann and five daughters, James Frederick was not recorded. James described himself as a gun maker employing 3 men. James died in March 1877 aged 83 years. Presumably, the business was sold. Its name was changed in 1879 to James Beattie & Co and it moved to 104 Queen Victoria Street. W A Jackson took over the Regent Street premises. Sarah Ann and three daughters were recorded in the 1881 census living at 10 St Margaret's Terrace, Hampstead. The 1891 census records her, a daughter and grand daughter and James Frederick, a bank clerk, living at 70 Tierney Road Streatham.

The firm traded in Queen Victoria Street as wholesalers and contractors for military arms, they closed in 1894.Internet Gun Club has some details of serial numbers and dates. Please email archives@internetgunclub.com with details of your query or your gun.

Tim

Joined: Mar 2012
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5
Thank you very much for the info
just by chance you mentioned c rosson ,we have a couple in the family , a sidelock ,and a early boxlock ,would never have guessed there was a connection.
Mark

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I have a Beattie double 12-bore fully riffled hammer gun, cased with label.

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I have a .500 BPE "Made Expressly by T. Woodward" for a "Hamilton & Co Calcutta & Simia".

Where does this guy fit in, and ditto for Hamilton & Co in "Injia's sunny clime"?

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This is the only info IGC has on Hamilton:

Name Hamilton & Co
Address1 Unknown
Address2 Old Courthouse Street, Dalhousie Square
City/Town Calcutta
Country India
Trade Jewellers
Other Address Simla and Birmingham.
Dates 1860?-1947?
Notes

A .450 (3 1/4 inch) BP Express rifle profusely inlaid in gold and dated to 1899 has been seen. The locks were signed J Woodward.

Hamiltons were a large firm of jewellers but, obviously, did not confine themselves entirely to traditional jewellery. In the 1920s and 1930s the manager in Calcutta was a Mr Frank Read who was a close friend of F B Prike of R B Rodda & Co whose offices were in the next street.

I suspect, given the previous posts, that the J should have read T Woodward for the rifle above. KK also wrote 'Simia' when 'Simla' is more likely, it being an Indian town, now called Shimla, apparently.

Tim

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Many Thanks for the info and correction, trw999.

Though it was a typo in the case of "Simia/Simla", it was most definitely NOT in the case of "T/J" Woodward.

T Woodward is in 4 places on the .500 BPE. And the gun was made "expressly for Hamilton Co".

From the information you've provided, I think it possible that after a few nightly refreshments, F B Prike of Rodda (a prominent British name in the gun trade in India) may have convinced Mr Frank Read that he should give it a go and get into the gun trade by having some back alley Birmingham craftsmen put the guns together for Hamilton Co, who imported them to India for sale there.

The "name" for quality was Woodward, but since they weren't the fine guns made by J Woodward they slapped on an erroneous initial, which happened to be the one that looked the most like a "J", to try to pull a fast one on the unsuspecting buyer(s) and grease the rails of sales.

As we know, many lesser guns pulled the same trick, W. Richards of Liverpool being the first to come to mind.

Last edited by Krakow Kid; 04/11/14 10:49 PM.
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me thinks you are mistaken in regards to T. Woodward and W. Richards, both were very well respected British makers who happen to have more famous relatives. The guns built by W. Richards in Liverpool can be wonderful and the firm still exists today though I do not believe they are building new guns.

http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/

Last edited by SKB; 04/12/14 10:22 AM. Reason: spelling

http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

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SKB - I stand corrected and apologize accordingly. I somehow knew I was out on a limb, it was late and I was trying to remember cases where names of guns were mutations of fine, expensive guns and that came to mind first.

However, I didn't mean in either case that the guns were shoddy or not quality merchandise, hence my reference to "back alley Birmingham craftsman", of which I have the highest respect and a bunch of guns to prove it.

That reference was for T Woodward guns; I was just trying to address Tim's intimation that the "J" was somehow a typo meant to be a "T" in the case of the .450 BPE cited.

As I mentioned, I own a very fine T Woodward double rifle, and it is built soundly. But as much as I love it I realize it is definitely not a J Woodward make.

That's all, really. Again, please accept my apologies for a muddled comment made in haste.

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