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#363807 04/10/14 09:09 AM
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Hello, I am new to the forum and I am looking for some information on a gun I just purchased. It is marked Lefever Arms Co and has fluid steel barrels that have been cut down to 26". It is marked 317xx I. It is also marked "Pat'd 1872" under the forearm. From information I have so far, the serial number puts it at 1901 but I am aware that 1/3 of the guns made by LAC were produced out of sequence and even some of them were finished in Ithaca after the sale in 1916. Furthermore, "I" grades did not begin until serial numbers around 360xx according to some experts that I have consulted. This gun does have a dolls head rib extension to perhaps complicate things more. Any help from you double gun enthusiasts out there?

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I think you may find your answers at the "LEFEVER FORUM". Sounds like an interesting shotgun.

http://lefeverforum.informe.com/

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I lifted the link from your posting on the lefeverforum. I'm just posting one of your four.

I think your gun is one of the examples of the mysteries of Lefevers. While it is clearly marked I grade, it certainly looks more like an H with the dolls head and cocking indicators.


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Looks like a Ithaca made gun using parts on hand to make up alter grade gun. Serial number is only the most basic guide for Lefever production date. I have seen late features on early serial numbers but not early features on later guns. Use to think that was just from guns being returned to the factory and being upgraded to late features. Not so sure much if any of that occurred. I have a DS which has a burl stock which would have been at home on a A grade. Either a bin clean out gun or gun made for employee.

Remington employees use to raid the wood room for employee grade blanks all the time. I bought an 1100 Skeet with exhibition grade feather crotch from a retired Remington employee. Sure that type of thing has gone on forever.

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Ithaca assembled Lefevers can usually be identified by letters stamped in the forend hangers. I say usually because just about anything is possible when it comes to Lefever guns. H and higher grade guns will have cocking indicators on the side plates while I and DS grades usually do not. From the photo posted on the Lefever forum it is a safe bet that your gun was assembled by Ithaca from remaining parts at the tail end of their production.

Last edited by TwiceBarrel; 04/12/14 01:31 PM.
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Hello eabond20
Pleased to have you on your first posting

fun reading
http://lefeverforum.informe.com/new-i-grade-dt709.html

I am sure the others wanted to say welcome also smile
You have some good data above,
Send more side pictures if you can.
Mike

Last edited by skeettx; 04/12/14 07:05 PM.

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I think it's more than likely that this is a Syracuse built gun, and I also feel that way too many Lefever guns are attributed to Ithaca. I keep hearing that up to 1/3 were built out of sequence, but have never seen any proof for that claim. The factory records are lost and there just aren't that many surviving guns accompanied by dated invoices. Most likely, a dolls head frame was used to expedite an order when I or DS frames were in short supply. We frequently see Lefevers with features of a higher grade gun... E barrels on an F or sear adjustment screws on a G for example, but we never see them using lower grade parts or materials to finish a gun.

It just doesn't make sense that a company that was frequently short on cash, to the point of needing investors or partners, would have perhaps 10,000 unfinished frames and parts for same in inventory. This would be even more unbelievable for the Durstons if they were contemplating getting out of the gun business. Also, case hardening was normally done late in the process. Guns were stocked while the metal was in the white. Why would Ithaca continue to stamp or engrave so many guns "Syracuse, N.Y."? When misinformation is repeated often enough, it becomes gospel. Damascus barrels are another example.

This is an interesting gun and another mystery. Last year, I bought an I grade in 16 gauge, XX frame, and automatic ejectors.

Does your I grade have cocking indicators and the LAC buttplate as we have seen on a few DS grades which have dolls heads and twist barrels? Are you sure your barrels are fluid steel, or perhaps reblued twist?


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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I think you are mistaking "made by Ithaca" and "made in Ithaca". When the Ithaca Gun Co. took over the Lefever Arms Co. in 1916 they continued to make guns in Syracuse until 1919. Then they made a few guns in Ithaca which are labeled Ithaca, NY.

We have no evidence that the Lefever Arms Co. under the Durston family was short on cash or unprofitable. However, they lost their inventor and designer in 1901. The guns did not change appreciably from that point forward with the exception of the introduction of a single trigger. However, even that was invented by Dan Lefever before he left.

I believe that the fact that the Durstons had nobody to keep up with technical innovations which were rampant at this point in time led them to sell off in pursuit of a more lucrative business in the rapidly expanding automobile industry.

There are a number of distinguishing features of Ithaca assembled guns that have been identified. There are limited records available from Abercrombie and Fitch which reliably identify some Ithaca assembled guns and have allowed us to examine those features and identify those that are associated with the Ithaca Arms Co.


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Quote:
We frequently see Lefevers with features of a higher grade gun... E barrels on an F or sear adjustment screws on a G for example, but we never see them using lower grade parts or materials to finish a gun.

Just for the record I have two G grades with Sear Adjusting screws, one a two hook gun @ SN 20,633, the other an early large hook gun @ N 29,418. My observations are this is normal for a G in this SN range, not an "Up-Grade". My FE @ # 38,025 does not have the sear adjusters. I do not know if any of the early H's had them or not, but easrly G's do. They were apparently eliminated at some point on all grades below an E, probably some where between 29K & 38k numbers.


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Dr. Bob, we do know that Dan Lefever sold off a controlling interest in his company to the Durstons and Howletts shortly after he incorporated the Lefever Arms Co. This was shortly after the Panic of 1893, and U.S. unemployment remained above 10% for over 5 years. There were several other economic contractions in the early 20th century which of course led to the creation of the Fed. The Panic of 1907 is notable as the stock market fell 50% in less than one year. 1907 also coincides with the end of the I grade Lefever gun. Hard times could well explain taking on investors or moving into other product lines like bicycle chains for Dan Lefever or automotive gears for the Durstons.

If we look at the serial number of the I grade in this thread, I'd say it's possible this might be one of the earliest prototype I grade guns. I grade would be the next logical progression downward in grade from the H, and a switch to cheaper fluid steel barrels to produce an even cheaper gun would be expected. That's why I questioned if this gun had cocking indicators and the LAC buttplate, and if it really had fluid steel tubes. I should have also asked if it has a semi-pistol grip stock. I've read that the Durston's insistence on producing lower grade guns to compete with cheap Belgian imports, the I and DS grades, may have hastened Dan's departure from his own company. The serial number of this gun would fit into that 1901 timeline.

I wonder what source you have for saying that Ithaca kept the sideplate production in Syracuse from 1916-1919? Elliot's books have the move happening immediately, and I've also read that the move was more gradual, but that production was in fact moved to Ithaca, N.Y. Either way, I still have serious reservations about the number of guns which are attributed to Ithaca.

If production did remain in Syracuse, you'd think most, if not all of the original workforce would have remained, and there would be little or no differences in the guns. If and when production and machinery was moved to Ithaca, it's hard to believe that production levels would have remained constant or even increased during such a transition. Also, would Ithaca really have flooded the market with a gun that was in direct competition with their own flagship Flues model double?

I'm also curious about the features which you say are consistant with Ithaca assembled guns, and how they differ from guns built under Durston or Lefever/Durston management. And I wonder if you have any explanation for the oft repeated statement that up to 1/3 of Lefevers were built out of sequence. From what I've seen of the serial number data that was being collected, there weren't enough small details being provided to make a definitive statement. It seems that new features and innovations were being put into guns and sold before patents were actually granted, and this could sometimes make accurate dating almost impossible without the actual records or invoices.

Miller, I'm assuming you are referring to G grades with the sear adjusters which must be accessed by removing the sideplate. I should have been more specific. I was referring to the external sear adjusting screw which was not supposed to be found on guns lower than E grade. I have that type on a GE and an FE, and the FE barrels are stamped with an E. Both of these are in the 40k-50k serial number range. I've seen several similar up-grades, especially with barrels, but have never seen an obvious down-grade. But I should know better than to say never when it comes to a Lefever.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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