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This is really unpleasant.

Thanks to those who responded with observations on the topic.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Originally Posted By: Stan
....Help me out here, craig. What exactly do you mean by that? I know I'm slow, but I ain't following you.

SRH


Stan, I just think you laid out your thoughts on game gunning. Seemed to me that Larry was stretching things a bit on being practical. I still can't think of one story here where a member is subsistence hunting or face dire consequences. I see the gun and hunting stories as primarily nonessential wants and no where near basic needs.

I agree with you that excuses are just that, excuses. I think if everyone has to achieve say that upper ten percent, then all that's going to happen is we have to send ninety percent of the hunters home. I just can't shoot that good, but I still want to go out and hunt.

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Lets get this back on topic.
I am going to qualify my answer by separating my results by the species of game pursued. I hunt Partridge (ruff grouse for the uninitiated) in the overgrown pastures, brains, Hawthorne, thickets and rocky orchards of the Catskills of NYS. That type of rough shooting isnt Pheasant hunting in the cornfields of Iowa or hunting Huns and Sharpies on the grasslands of Montana. Not saying that those hunts are a cakewalk but there is a difference. Where I hunt it seems like you always need one leg shorter than the other.

My hunting gun of choice is almost always an AH Fox double in 20 or 16 unless its a crappy day and then the SKB 20 SxS comes out. I hunt with my Field Bred Springer. We only have a 4 bird limit and I have never limited, never tried, never cared to. But maybe it would be an ego booster to accomplish it once. But it isnt necessary.

Back in the early mid 80s, when I got my first bird dog ( another Springer) I trained her behind my house. I was living on the edge of town and had a nice meadow about 100 yards by 300 yards bordered by brush and hedges on three sides. My neighbor owned it. He was in his 80s at the time and blind. He was a died in the wool partridge gunner (and ducks) . He owned the feed mill in ton and also had some duck hunting lands u in Canada at one time but his true passion was Partridge. He ran Springers and shot a Remington 32 and a Browning Superposed; both 12 ga. Guns. Whenever I had the dog working out back, his daughter would ask me to bring my dog in to see him when we were done. Kate would run in and jump up on his lap and he would hold her and stroke her and then start telling me stories of bird hunting when he was younger, growing up in the area. I was in my 20s and didnt realize at the time that I should have taken some notes and made some sort of record of his hunting experiences. Anyway, his one bit of advice to me was that if you wanted to kill partridge, you had to put lead in the air. If a bird flushed and you saw pieces of it through the branches and cover, swing and shoot . if you ever wait for that open shot, you will never kill a bird. Having a dog was a necessity because you didnt always see where that bird might fall.

I remember later on in life bringing friend to chase birds and they would yell bird hen one flushed and I would wait and listen and no shot. I would ask why they didnt shoot and they would invariably say they didnt have a clear shot. I would give them the advice given me but they still wouldnt shoot.

I cant count the number of times I flushed a bird and swung and tracked it and shot and shot again and watched t drop, after branches were shredded and leaves fluttered to the ground. Its not like hunting ducks or pheasants or quail or Huns or Sharpies. I may be biased but thats how I see it. I generally shoot about 3 shells for each bird I get. I shoot clays once or twice a year , not because I dont want to but because of the other things in my life that I have to do.

I will say that my now since departed hunting partner usually shot 75-80 percent. The last year he was alive he did have his best day ever, he killed 4 Partridge with 4 shells. He never missed. The last bird he hit but he didnt find it for over half an hour. He knew he hit it but didnt see exactly where it dropped. He didnt have a dog. He searched and searched and found it. A true sportsman in every sense. Then he up and died on me.

Someday in the future I will become an old crusty bustard like the majority of you guys here on the board and Ill be able to spend my golden years shooting clays, trading guns and setting others straight. And of course my average will then be in the 80-90 % range.

Last edited by Brian; 04/01/14 01:01 AM.

Brian
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Brian you are right in that where and what you shoot at matters a great deal. I am spoiled by open shooting on pointed birds in the wild and preserve birds outside of regular season.

Open shooting lanes and without question over a point makes shooting within 20 yards with open chokes a relatively set shot. I am not a great clays shot, especially on distant targets. I don't have to be. I imagine if all I shot was passing ducks or doves I would get to be good at that (today I am not) It is no different than the skeet and trap shooters who used to depress me when I was a teenager and couldn't break over 20 out of 25 except by luck. They shot 24-25 everytime or so it seemed. They were consistent as they shot a lot of the same sets time and time again. Practice, Judgement, the right equipment, and time on any particular thing matters.

My grouse hunting days when a LT behind a Lab definitely had much lower percentages than my current 1-2 shells per bird on most days. Say more like 4-6 if I could find my notes from then. If I went back to it I would probably start out the same or worse for awhile.

I learned a long time ago in western Kansas when I showed up with my beautiful double, that the old guy with the worn out 870 was fairly likely to out shot me regardless of my clays practice and perfect fit. He knew where to be and when to shot, and just as importantly, when not to. That is the result of a lifetime of working the one game with the one gun. Interestingly I can recall more than once discussing quail in eastern kansas with the western boys and hearing from the great pheasant shots that quail was tough shooting compared to pheasant, while I thought the opposite as I cleaned up on quail all the time back then. They shot few quail and did not have the practice I did. Today, I am still not a great pheasant shot on unpointed birds.

There is hope for any of us who pursue this with a passion that we will improve to a fine point and hold it there for awhile till age takes down a bit. My father towards the end could only preserve shot or block on pheasant and his speed to acquire and fire meant he missed taking most shots. I noted he still went out and tried all the up through age 83 still bagging a few. It was more about the dogs and being with the boys than killing things.

I do not comment much about the overall quality of shooting as I cannot truly judge it. I know how things are where I have hunted over time and what I have witnessed. I know that it is not an accurate measure and my buddy who guides at a preserve sees the whole spectrum from deadly accurate to very very sad.

I was sad once too so I do not blindly hurl rocks at the general public on skills I cannot judge. All that said, those of us who frequent this board are a self selected and a probably over passionate group who take what we do too seriously and therefore are not a good sampling of the population. I suspect we do shoot above average, I sure hope we do. I believe the question changed to how many shells per bird versus percentage would change to 90% plus score to 1-2 shells per bird with 90% plus taken within those two shots.

PS 3 shells per grouse on the woods is pretty good.


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Not related but would consider it a distinction. He's generous with his experience and well-mannered.

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One in three is good shooting. I have same gun, same cover and believe in your friend's shoot without clear shot.

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Originally Posted By: eightbore
Larry Brown is an absolute idiot and has proven it on this thread.

What Stan and I both object to is someone who has the means to become a good shot and doesn't bother.


Looks to me like some impolite folks got up on the wrong side of the bed. I post the results of an actual study on how poorly hunters shoot, and that makes me an idiot. Oh well . . . I also had the occasional "problem student" who lacked the DESIRE to understand, back when I was in the teaching business. True in HS, college, and the Army. But unfortunate.

Matter of fact, I also object to someone who has the means to become a good shot and doesn't bother. Of course if eightbore had bothered to read my posts, he would have observed my point: which is that a lot of people lack the means. As we get older, we tend to think: "Well hell . . . I did it back in the 1960's. Which means anyone and everyone can do it now." Well, there are a lot of hunters, to start with, who lack the desire to become really good shots. Hunting isn't that big a deal to them. They're not that concerned about how well they shoot. Haven't looked recently at the available statistics concerning the target shooting games, but I recall being surprised to learn that close to half the ATA members DO NOT HUNT. Couldn't find similar numbers of NSCA (sporting clays) members who are hunters. But when you consider that the total membership of NSCA is something like 30,000, and when South Dakota alone has about 150,000 pheasant hunters in a typical season, it more or less puts things in perspective. Relatively few really serious target shooters in the ranks of bird hunters.

And things are significantly tougher these days in terms of "means" than it was in the long ago--or even not so long ago--past. You want to shoot a lot; save money by reloading. Except that doesn't save you nearly as much as it used to, with shot now a minimum of $40 a bag, more than that most places; powder and primer prices also way up; not to mention the fact that the gas you need to get you to the range is almost twice what it was just 5 years ago. Excuses, you say? OK . . . or maybe explanations. Are a lot of people in this country doing a whole lot better now than they were 5 or 10 years ago? Don't the economists keep telling us about stagnation in the middle class--which is where most shooters and hunters fall? For me, the nearest skeet range that's open from October to April is over 50 miles away. Unless the weather is godawful bad, or except during hunting season, I'll make that drive at least once a week. But I'm retired, and nobody has yet started tampering with my pretty decent military pension, not to mention Social Security. No kids at home or in college, an understanding wife, and no other really expensive hobbies.

So it takes both desire--which most hunters lack--and it also takes the right situation in terms of money and time available. And when the economy's bad, as it is now, there's less money and time available. A gun dealer friend is backing off on his gun show schedule. Why? Because, at least in this part of the country, very little buying of the kind of guns we talk about on this board. And his inventory is of the modestly priced category. Liquid propane, which many people in the rural Upper Midwest use to heat their homes, doubled or tripled in price this year. I paid $500 more--for just 200 gallons--than I've ever paid before. I pity the people living closer to the edge than I am, and who burn a lot more LP than I do. But it makes a big difference in terms of means when the gas to get you to the range is close to $4/gallon instead of $2, when LP is $5 instead of $1.50, when shot is north of $40 a bag instead of $15 or $20. Something has to give, and what gives in your typical budget is disposable income above things which are necessary--like heating your home and the cost of driving your car.

So let's try looking at people and the economy as they are TODAY, not as they were back when we were learning to shoot . . . and when I was able to send a $50 money order home every month when I was in Basic and AIT, and have enough money saved as a result to pay for my first semester of college. That's not today's world . . . unfortunately.

And while King and I are not related, I value his contributions from north of the border. His politics aren't mine, but I've been married to a Democrat for almost 30 years, and I've been hunting with another one for 40 years.

Finally, as for PA24's evaluation of my mental abilities . . . Anyone who talks about shooting nothing more open than modified and then refers to spreaders ought to maybe check his own thought processes and logic. Or lack thereof.

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown

Finally, as for PA24's evaluation of my mental abilities . . . Anyone who talks about shooting nothing more open than modified and then refers to spreaders ought to maybe check his own thought processes and logic. Or lack thereof.


I know you don't comprehend what you read very well Brown, so let me lay it out in "Sally See Spot Run" terms for you...... I never said I shoot spreaders, I don't shoot spreaders or reload them or hunt in topography that requires the use of them..... I live in the Western U.S.A. and hunt in the Western U.S.A. and a typical shot is longer than your porch in Wisconsin.

And yes, I have hunted 60+ years with only modified and full choked guns and I have done quite well thank you.... According to the FAA my eyesight is still 20/10, how is yours...?

Spreaders were mentioned as an option for brush lot hunters, like you, who talk about and need to shoot up close and personal with regularity, without grinding/boring/changing vintage original F/M chokes.....I do believe that is why spreaders were invented, I would think you already know that, then again maybe not.





Doug



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Sorry to see a great topic get sidelined and trashed, hard for me to understand. As to "how poorly", I usually describe myself as a lifelong mediocre shot. Newly met people say "that can't be true, you shot tons of birds!". My response is "I hunt a lot!" After nearly 60 years of shotguning a few truths seem apparent:

1. A new gun rarely ups my average, never shot better than I did when all I could afford was a 12 ga. 870 as my only gun. Shot everything from quail to Canadas, just changed loads and the barrel--either a 26" Imp. Cyl. or a 30" full choke.

2. Species and method might be #1. Decoyed ducks, I shoot over 75% with 100% on occasion. Ruffed grouse I might as well shoot a slingshot, seldom over 20%.

3. Most hunters are shooting guns that are overchocked. My current "go to" gun is a SKB 585 12 ga. o/u. Though I have 7-8 chokes I rarely switch from SK1 and SK2 chokes no matter if I'm pass shooting geese with steel BB's or hunting praire grouse over my Springer with lead #7's.

4. Age is a mixed blessing. I often hunt waterfowl with a 20 something son of a old hunting buddy. His reflexes and shooting ability are something I dimly remember if ever I actually had his level of skill. The down side is I don't shoot nearly as well as I used to and I'm losing lifelong hunting partners at an alarming rate. The up side, retirement allows me 60+ days in the field every year and the opportunity to hunt the exotic (for me) places I read about all my life.

5. I, too, fell for the "magumitis" advertising on ammunition. Heavy loads of big pellets at high velocity. I admit to an aversion to recoil and have returned to light loads at reasonable velocity and do better. Raised in S.D. at the zenith of pheasant/duck hunting I saw thousands of birds killed with 1 1/4 of 6's at 1220 fps. I now shoot 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. 12 ga., 7/8 or 1 oz. 20 ga. loads @ 1200 fps and smallish shot--7's being my all around favorite. For ducks, 1 oz. of steel #3's at 14-1500 fps or so matches the old favorite of 1 1/4 of lead #4's at 1220.

6. Practice, practice, practice! I shot best as a kid, a thousand rounds or so every summer(I had a job and a handloading setup, want to avoid an attack) at flying birds; pigeons, crows, blackbirds, starlings and sparrows were all fair game. Now I'm reduced to several sporting clays and five stand shooting sessions every summer and wish I could do more. Oh, and by the way, to support my claim of mediocre shooting, breaking over 65 at sporting clays is cause for celebration.

My overall average when the hunting season is done (last week in Nebraska for spring snows for me) would likely be something like 50%---high 80's on ducks and preserve pheasants, low 20's on ruffed and blue grouse.

Steve


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From personal experience and observation ....

1) When you do a lot of shooting at a particular quarry you get reasonably good at it. When I was shooting wood pigeon big time (mostly over decoys) the local gun shop / game dealer would give a 25 Express shells for 10 dead woodpigeon. I used a Rizzini O/U with Cylinder and full and reckoned on 17 birds per box.

2) You can have favourite shots and bogy ones too. Wood pigeon coming in to roost I found just suited me somehow, and yet other folk who I reckon are better shots overall than me can really struggle. A dropping pheasant with a curl on it is as safe as houses if I'm around; I might as well throw my hat at it. Actually, I have. crazy

3) Booze does you in. Not to re-start the great drink debate, but one can of beer knocks my performance to pieces. I'm not drunk, far from it, but the timing and co-ordination rapidly go downhill.

4) Being young and physically fit is a huge advantage; being old and shagged out really really sucks. Post cardiac surgery, rotator cuff problems, wonky eyesight getting wonkier and a drug regime that could kill cockroaches, I'm now too embarrassed to pick up a gun.

Eug


Thank you, very kind. Mine's a pint
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