doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com remodeling a Winchester 61

I'm with eightbore on this one and would love to see a pic of you detonated barrel section.

Stephen- I think you meant to write "Love to see a picture of YOUR detonated Barrel section". Ain't never gonna happen. I don't know you from the proverbial "Adam's off ox, so no explicit offense intended on my part in the following-- as you may well not know, or need to know, the "loggerheads" Mr. eightbore came to some time ago on the Pregnant Gophers Cornholing Association Gruppen- suffice it to say then- any "friend of my enemy becomes an enemy of mine" and we'll let it go at that, Sir.

I will give you the "semi-benefit of the doubt" and assume you are not directly implying that I am an liar, as Herr Murph Da Surf allegedly did regarding my possession of two 12 gauge high grade Parkers and a "Bogarted AH Fox HE Super-Fox, a few years ago. As I do not know you, I'll just write it off to your having a "Doubting Thomas syndrome" nand in balance, not a bad concept, if you agree, as I do, with the late POTUS Ronnie Reagan's-- "Trust is OK, but always cut the cards".

Are you a Winchester collector perhaps? I am, and I have studied them ever since I was in High School. Do you have a machinist or tool and die background, as I do, thanks to my late Grandfather, where I worked since age ten in his machine shop just off Canal St. in the Queen City. Do you perhaps know basic ferrous and non -ferrous welding, brazing and soldering techniques- as I do. I made my living welding to ASTM and API codes, and I know what both soft solder and silver solder look like as residual traces on heat treated AISI 4140 and later rust blued steel- do you???

Mr. Eightbore does know Parkers, I will surely grant him that- he has been collecting them since he was in the grade school years apparently. But Winchesters- both the Models 1912, M12 and M21-- are NOT "Carriage Bolted Hinged Pin doubleguns"-- and comparing the metallurgy of a SAE 1018 mild steel drop forged receiver that has been "double fitted" to the AISI 4130 drop forged and heat treated before final assembly of either a Model 12 or a Model 21 is not quite the same.

So, sorry to not be able fill your request Mr. Stephen, but you will see Hillary Clinton pick Monica Lewinski for her 2016 running mate before I will EVER post any picture of any gun or gun parts not only here, but on any Internet website. Too many unscrupulous "trolls" looking for information they have no legitimate need to know to take that chance. I hope you understand my position- sort of my bounce on the old Chinese proverb/curse/warning: "May you live in interesting times" RWTF

You miss spelled my name, twice...

I have the Madis Model 12 book also & on page 53 he states "Winchester's solid ribs were usually made as a part of the barrel, a milling job that required a great deal of time by expert machinists." Note the word "usually".

I've often wondered about that statement because of the cost of machining & finishing such a complex rib & barrel assembly as compared to what Winchester charged.

To use 1953 for example the retail cost of a standard plain bbl Model 12 was $93.85 & the cost of a standard gun with the solid rib (matted rib as described by Winchester) was $110.35. That is a 17.5% increase in price which is significant but still less what I would think the complexity of the job would add.

Also I just got done looking at the muzzle of a 12 ga solid rib model 12 produced in 1953 using a magnifying glass & while it is an excellent job, you can absolutely tell that on this particular gun the barrel & rib are two separate pieces but I cannot see any solder at the join line looking directly at the muzzle so I've no idea what type of solder was used by looking at it.

I'm sure someone out there has put solid rib Model 12 barrels into a hot bluing tank & if they were put together with soft solder it would be common for the ribs to come off so I'm going to make the assumption that Winchester may have used a silver solder process to attach ribs & possibly there are some solid ribs out there that were made as Madis described but I do know that the one I'm looking at wasn't.

Yes- common mistake if it were being spoken-- but as you misspelled
"miss spelled" let's call it even and start over. Your title mentions writer- gun related. The only gun related magazines I read are "The American Rifleman" (I'm a NRA life member) and Sports Afield- I am an avid rifleman, and enjoy both John Barness and USMC Colonel (Ret'd.) Craig Boddington articles. What publications in the sporting genre feature your articles, please?

Very fair points, Mr. Brittany, and well taken. The 20 gauge M12 in my possession was made in 1933, just a few years from when the "Nickel Steel" barrels were replaced by the "Winchester Proof Steel" (both high nickel and chromium content alloys)barrels and the 2 & 3/4" chamber length stamping on the magazine extension area, instead of later on, when it was marked on the left side barrel ahead of the receiver-

Also, this is a factory rib, and the factory inspection stamp W encircled- which always appears at Top Dead 12 o'clock on a plain barrel M12- was moved to aprox. 9 o'clock to allow for the top milled rib-- My guess is, the earlier pre-WW2 Model 12's may have had the rib milled from a barrel blank, post WW2 went with the soldered on version-

I have a 1949 mfg. year 3" Mag M12 with a 30" solid rib, and a 1938 3" Mag M12 with a 30" plain barrel- allowing for a slight difference in forearm shape and walnut density, I will weigh just the barrel magazine assemblies of both shotguns- on digital readout USPS scales- and if they are "dead nutz" close, I will concede that later era M12's with solid ribs may well have had them soldered in place--

You might also please re-read my original post, when I quoted George Madis page 53-- I put the word "usually" in capital letters-- as I know of WRA's "running changes" from the first Model 1912 in 20 gauge from 1912 through the last production in 1963-- We might also recall well known gun writer from Field & Stream- David Petzal--Sporting Classics May/June issue 1985--page 48: "The Model 12 owed its existence to the fact that first-class machinists worked cheaply in those days"-- amen--

I penned a rant about RWTF and his hyperbole (backed up by extensive chest thumping "bona fides") always turning otherwise collegial discussions into pissing matches, but deleted it in the interest of all. But then I couldn't resist...

Incredibly observant, like a fox with his head up his !ss, you failed to notice I've had a column titled "Custom Shop" in each issue of Sports Afield for the past 7 years� (miss spelled Barsness' name as well)
I believe the official name nick is "Fox With the Runs".

Fox with the Runs has effectively destroyed another fine thread. I am just pleased that his history on internet forums is well known to those posting here. Most, if not all, of his comments about my "doubting statements" in the past are false. Thank you for considering this possibility.

No more false than the fable about a $500 Model 21 Winchester 12 gauge allegedly bought on E-Bay- in a pig's ass-!!

First off,in this this Al Gorian Internet/ubernet world, what was once transferred by snail mail or land line telephone is now moving at the speed of Mach 3-information highway- Go to Cabelas Gun Library and have a shotgun you want to sell, I'll wager a flat of RST shotshells they will research the going asking prices on the various gun auction sites, as well as referencing the Fiejestad Blue Books extant.

Gone are the days of the uninformed rural widows selling 3 pc. 5 wt. Jim Payne fly rods with case for $50.00, and CHE 20 bore Parkers for $350.00 with LOM case--

No one in their right mind would let go of a Model 21 for that paltry sum- never even a first year Field Grade 12 with DT and Extractors and beat all to hell - A well worn field grade 12 gauge plain barrel Model 12- Heck yes at $500, but NOT a M21--

But there is a Catch-22- YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SELL FIREARMS ON E-bay- No exceptions- you can sell Gun parts (not receivers however) gun stocks, scopes, sights, gun cases, empty ammo boxes until Hell won't have it, but NOT firearms of any type- If Murph Da Surf had said he bought this "phantom M21 12 gauge" for that amount on Gun Busters, Guns 'n Roses, or whatever other auction website, and he indeed alledgely screwed some, let us say hypothetically elderly lady living on Social Security out of the fair market price for a 12 gauge M21- NRA condition and trigger(s) and or ejectors/extractors weighed into the mix- and without ever seeing this "imaginary M21" but at least $2500, then, shame on him.

When I think of this "gentleman" who grossly overplayed his exalted position as a Senior Lifer with the infamous Podunk Gap Confusion Assn. to get me, as an annual paid up member who even had an article I wrote published in the PP magazine-- I then recall the fable about the Persian ruler who had twin sons, and as they grew in age, they hated each other with a jealously and rivalry that make Cain and Abel or Romulus and Remus seem like the Katzenjammer kids-

When they were about 18-- a Genie visited the first born of the two- and sensing his disdain for his sibling- made him this promise-- "Allah be praised, Sahib--to end this rift, I will grant you one and only one wish- for whatever you want- But the catch is- whatever you wish for, your brother gets doubled your desires-

So, you wish for a harem filled with 24 nubile virgins awaiting your pleasure- then your most despised brother gets a harem with 48- etc. etc- The brother thought for a second and then said to the Genie- Alright, here's my wish- make me blind in one eye!""