doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "Classic" and "American gun" oxymorons?

'Farmer', 'hardware and 'gamekeeper' are not recognisable, named types. They are generalist terms to refer to lower quality, plainly finished guns. For example, Greener sold 'Needham' badged hammer guns in 1891 for �3. 15s. 0d.

Listed as a 'Model 501' and described as a 'plain and sound weapon' 'Made from English material throughout, it is the cheapest gun made that can be recommended as reliable'.

Buzz,

Can you post a couple photos of your Hellis Reliable?

Love to see it...

Redoak: I'm a clown at posting of photos on this site. I've done it a couple of times but it took me hours and I sort of stumbled in to it. I can email photos if someone who's not a clown at this is interested in posting them.

Here are a few pics from Buzz.

Thank you Jay for posting the photos for me. I took this 'farm implement' grade Hellis to my gunsmith for lubricating the internals. I was shocked with what we found when he took the gun to pieces. All of the internals were polished to a very high level. All of the springs, including the top lever spring were of the leaf spring variety and very robust. With all this in mind, I think the British boxlock is an excellent value......this gun is somewhere in the approx $1500-$2000 price range (or at least i wouldn't take any less than that). Try buying a vintage 'classic' American gun made as well as this gun for that money.

Buzz,

Love the look of your Hellis Reliable, thanks for providing the photos, and thanks to Jay for posting them.

I know little about the American Classics, but your Hellis appears to be an ideal field gun to me. I have an A. Sanders BLNE 2" 12 that looks almost identical, including the lined borders, that weighs 4# 15 oz. A near perfect grouse & woodcock gun, IMHO.

I love fine, tight English scroll, but I prefer a plain gun like your Hellis, to one that is haphazardly engraved.

And I agree with you that the British (Birmingham) boxlocks are an excellent value, provided they are in reasonable condition.

BTW, I thought that those lines along the edges of the action are called border engraving... Or is there another name for them?

This Hellis would equate to a Webley proprietary grade 3 in quality, being supplied at a cost of around �18.00 in 1914, or �14.00 as a non-ejector. Charles Osbourne provided a very similar gun in 1900 for �13.00. They were all well made and properly fitted internally but with no frills. History has shown them to be very serviceable and long lived as well as being well balanced and engineered, pleasant shooting guns.

Haven't we split all the hairs that are necessary here? If the gun was American made, no matter the gun, it should be subject to that criteria as to whether or not it is an "American classic". If the questions is "can any American shotgun be considered a 'classic'", well then, that is an entirely different question, is it not?

Looking at that Hellis likely made any rationally thinking individuals forget all about classic American guns.

Nice, servicable, and classic gun, Buzz.

Best,
Ted

Buzz that is a nice gun.

As are my Parker VHs. Any rational person would recognize them as well built, nice, serviceable guns also. But some get picked off even by the hype written a hundred and twenty years ago by the nineteenth century English marketing guys.