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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,032 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,032 Likes: 8 |
This is a lot of fine hair splitting.
My 2 cents: Are all American made SXS a classic? No. But I would submit that the well known brands manufactured from the late 1890's to the 1930's fit that bill pretty well.
If your SXS was made during that time frame and if;
It is a gun that you saved up for or sold something of value because of an irresistible attraction;
It is one of the first ones you admire from your collection;
It is your favorite shooter;
& you think it looks just as good, if not better than your high school prom date;
then it could, under this subjective standard, qualify as a classic.
I know my Sterlingworth and LC Smith do.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106 |
British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too. Small bore: I own a 12b Charles Hellis, 'The Reliable'. This gun is a boxlock with only border engraving. Is this piece an example of a farmer grade or hardware store gun that England would have produced? How can one tell a farmer or hardware grade from a gamekeeper's grade, if indeed there is such distinction? This particular Hellis gun is very well made and the internals are robust and finished to a high level. If this gun is a farmer grade, in my opinion it far surpasses the hardware/farmer grade produced in America, such as a Stevens SxS. (addendum: I just looked at this gun and it actually has NO engraving....I was mistaken when I said it was border engraved).
Last edited by buzz; 01/14/14 06:21 PM. Reason: Clarification
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544 |
You can say that but I can't.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,544 |
Actually, even the inexpensive guns made by the likes of Greener and Scott and Bonehill etc were sound, well engineered and put together. A lot carry the names of hardware store (ironmongers in British).
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
Ferlach gun catalogs from before WW1 are full of inexpensive farmers' guns.
With kind regards,
Jani
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too. Small bore: I own a 12b Charles Hellis, 'The Reliable'. This gun is a boxlock with only border engraving. Is this piece an example of a farmer grade or hardware store gun that England would have produced? How can one tell a farmer or hardware grade from a gamekeeper's grade, if indeed there is such distinction? This particular Hellis gun is very well made and the internals are robust and finished to a high level. If this gun is a farmer grade, in my opinion it far surpasses the hardware/farmer grade produced in America, such as a Stevens SxS. (addendum: I just looked at this gun and it actually has NO engraving....I was mistaken when I said it was border engraved). I agree totally with Buzz, even the 'Ironmonger" level guns built overseas are excellent examples and in my opinion far outclass the American equivalent for, what is described in this thread as, a dedicated UPLAND GAME gun. The French, German, Belgium and especially the English gun and their fit and finish and polish are far and away better than any American built gun. But, for the one gun for everything with fur and feathers in which the American gun was built for, I'll take the American built gun.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
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Great thread Mike, good information now that our friends from overseas are posting. 
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106 |
Yeah Treb, having said English guns are superior in the fit and finish dept, primarily on the farmer/hardware/ironmonger grade guns, I must admit I am very fond and happy with many American guns. They are clearly utilitarian and most, if not all of the 'classic' American guns hold a special place in my heart. And along this line, I have shot for years Browing Supers (which an American mind invented) and own two Model 21 Winchester shotguns that I thoroughly enjoy, admiring as well as shooting, and believe me, and God willing, none of these guns are leaving my stewardship anytime soon.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
You can say that but I can't. Don't be so tough on yourself. Someone else will be along to take care of that.  
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1 |
You can say that but I can't. Don't be so tough on yourself. Someone else will be along to take care of that. Oh I don't know ... buzz talked straight opinion about the guns. I wonder if he could characterize folks who don't know better as turd-polishers and get away unscathed? Small Bore, can you answer the question buzz asked about his Hellis "Reliable" and whether there's a difference between "farmer/hardware" and "gamekeeper" grades of English-made guns? As for "classic" as an adjective for some old American-made SxSs, the dictionary and personal definitions offered here don't seem to me to stretch the word too far. Jay
Last edited by Gunflint Charlie; 01/15/14 12:18 AM.
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