doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Double Rifle Drilling - 9.3X74R/16ga

Gentlemen,

I have been hoping to find a nice 9.3X74R double rifle drilling for years and I believe luck has finally come my way. Though this particular piece was retailed by Helmut Zehner of Frankfurt the gun was actually made by one of my favorite makers, Bernhard Merkel of Suhl as noted by his stamp "Bemesu" on the receiver and barrels. The year of manufacture is 1938. The scope is a period Hensoldt-Wetzlar Dural-Dialytan 4X with its original lens covers. I haven�t had the time, and have no idea when I will, for a proper photo shoot but hopefully these bench and den photos will suffice. What makes this DR drilling extra special, for me anyway besides being a 9.3X74R DR, is that it is a side-plate Anson & Deeley box-lock.

Here is what fellow GGCA member and NE forum contributor Kuduae had to say about the action in an earlier e-mail correspondence on the subject of this drilling:

��this gun is neither a side-lock, nor a side-plated Blitz-/trigger plate action, but a side-plated box-lock or Anson drilling. These are quite rare, as making them is even more complicated, real expensive, than a side-lock. As you have to fit two locks on the right, one on the left of the barrel lumps, these are usually set over to the left slightly to avoid an over wide and heavy action bar. Their advantage: The action area, distance trigger to breech face, is about 1" shorter than the others, bringing the center of gravity further to the rear.�

Here too is a bit on Bernhard Merkel from Dietrich Apel�s (founder of the GGCA) �German Hunting Guns� website http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/ :

Bernhard Merkel (1874-1954) Trade Name: BEMESU - Bemesu

Bernhard Emil Merkel, a son of Friedrich Ernst Ferdinand, founded a Company at Wolfsgrube 16 (in Suhl) at an unknown date at the turn of the century. The Gun Company Bernhard Merkel is taken over by a son Fritz (1906-1976), one of the three children. All kinds of hunting and sporting guns of solid construction and execution were produced. This is also the case during the war years 1939 to 1945. It is not known whether parts for military guns were made, but this was most likely the case. The hunting guns were unsurpassed in quality and handling qualities. Bernhard was himself a hunter. The guns were marked with the B. Merkel Suhl signature. Among others Bernhard Merkel made guns for the Companies Barella, Genschow, Kettner, Kind and Mauser as well as for individual customers. To accommodate the owners and friends in these companies they also performed repairs on handguns.

By 1930 the company had approximately 12 employees. After 1945 Bernhard and his son Fritz (1906-1976) who had returned from a prison camp, worked as gunsmiths together with a stock maker for the Gun Makers� Cooperative B�HaG into the 1970s.

"Kaisergriff" (Kaiser Grip) and butt-stock ...







And now, off to a boar hunt!

Congratulations! That is one very unique gun, and a true custom gun in many respects. Love it...Steve

Wow, Mark. That is...magnificent. Congratulations and good for you.

B�chsemann,
what a nice Doppelb�chsdrilling! Congratulations! I wish I could cary it next week on wild boar!
What is the weight of the Drilling? How does it shoot with Brenneke!
Gunwolf

Mark,
Wow!

Very impressive indeed, my congratilations!

With kind regards,
Jani

Buchsemann,

congratulations to this wonderful rifle!
I'm intrigued by the shaping of the buttstock, this looks very unusual for a prewar Suhl Drlling! Apparently with little drop at heel, designed for shooting with the scope, again unusual.

Regards
fuhrmann

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for the nice comments. The subject gun is one of those firearms that really needs to be handled to appreciate it fully, in particular its balance. It's too bad we're scattered as far apart as we are otherwise I'd be happy to show it to all of you. With our fall home renovation project taking us into the holiday season, and then that "Polar Vortex" thing that hit us this last week, I haven't had a chance to see how it shoots as yet. I have a bunch of 9.3X74R cartridges loaded up with different grain weights and charges (from other regulating projects) ready for my trip out to the range as well as many boxes of the new Brenneke 65mm 16 ga "Classic" slugs. I�m really curious to see how the Brenneke slugs will group in relation to the DR barrels. I have a Russian boar hunt planned for the first week of March so I'll be getting out soon to dial this gun in for the hunt; with that a range report will follow. Having been somewhat involved in the 65mm Brenneke slug project I feel a little obligated to shoot a boar with the slug, if one happens to come in close, although doing such a thing would seem rather odd with two rifle barrels parked on top of the shot tube. As to Gunwolf's question about the weight of the gun I hope to post that as well rather soon. My guess would be 9 1/2 lbs. but I'll check and see. Yes, the stock configuration is unusual as compared to what we typically see. GGCA member Dick Hummel said the style of the cheek-piece is early Austrian and the extended pistol grip is called a "Kaiser Grip". Kaiser Wilhelm needed such a thing to accommodate his handicap but who knows why the guy that ordered this gun wanted such a thing. It's very comfortable for me so I'm happy with it. I trust it will shoot well doubting that Bernhard Merkel would let anything mediocre out of his shop but again, we'll have to see ...

Regards,

Mark

Gentlemen,

Per a recent reply from our friend Kuduae (Axel) on the Nitro Express forum, noting the use of slugs in drillings, I may very well be changing my plans for using one of the new Brenneke slugs in the subject Bemesu DR drilling. Reads like it may be a "spot of luck" if my shot tube groups the slug down with the rifle barrels. Kuduae notes that the shot tube of a DR drilling was really just for launching shot unlike a conventional drilling where the left shot tube, using a slug, was generally aligned in such a way that the point of aim was pretty much the same as the rifle barrel using the flipped-up rifle sight at close range.

Mark

This is a bit OT but since you mentioned the NitroExpress Forum: why do I see everything there in small letters, hard to read at all, same with pictures? Everything was fine a month ago or so... Thanks.

With kind regards,
Jani

B�chsemann,
as far as I know, all modern Makers as Merkel, Krieghoff, Heym a.s.o. offer to shoot and proof their DR Drillings with slugs. I nearly can`t imagine, that a Bernhard Merkel Doppelb�chsdrilling, whenever much older, wasn`t proofed with Brenneke slugs as well...

But of course I may be wrong .

Gunwolf

Gunwolf,

It's not that the shot tube isn't "proofed" for slugs, Kuduae (Axel) is saying that the shot tube on a DR drilling is not usually set-up/aligned for use with slugs when using the fixed rifle sights.

Here are Kuduae's exact words:

"regarding double rifle drillings: As you intend to use slugs in the shot barrel of your Bemesu dr-drilling, thoroughly check point of impact before using it on game. You already have two rifle barrels on hand, so the lower barrel was intended for shot use only, in case some shootable fur and feather offers an opportunity. A dr-drilling usually has no rear sight folding out of sight automatic. So many of them are regulated to throw a hasty shot pattern above the line of open rifle sights. At least my Lovena dr-drilling does this. Consequently it shoots a slug high too. As Bernhard Merkel was an avid hunter besides one of the best gunmakers, he likely regulated your drilling this way also to make the shot barrel really usable."

I'll be shooting the Bemesu DR drilling with the scope when working up my load for the rifle barrels and when shooting the Brenneke slug. Based on what Kuduae says it may just be a spot of luck if the slug hits close to the rifle barrel group, we'll see. After reading Kuduae's NE reply I am giving the idea of bringing along another drilling (conventional configuration - probably my Richard Knopf/Suhl � 16ga/8X57JRS)for a second boar, if available, should the Bemesu shot tube place the slug too far outside of the rifle group at 50 yards. I really want to get out and use the new Brenneke slugs on game and this boar hunt may be my only chance prior to next winter.

Do you use the 16ga 65mm Brenneke slugs in Germany? If so, what is your opinion of their performance?

Mark

Jani,

I'm sorry to hear that NE is not working for you, it looks normal to me. Have you contacted John?

Mark

Buchsemann,
Looking at the stockwork I feel that the untypical features may reflect the ideas or wishes of the first owner, and this gun was "bespoken" in every detail.
By the way, what is the length of pull? Looks loong on the photograph!
Everything is "top notch" in this gun, engraving included - money was no concern when the gun was ordered.

Regulation of the barrels might be "as ordered by customer" as well and you have to try and find out.
But my first concern there would be to find a good load for the rifle barrels.

fuhrmann

Mark,

I have no own experience with slugs to share.
All I can do is to sum up what I've heard and read.
In one word: controversial...

The general canon is that slugs are an "emergency thing", in case you have no rifle barrel at hand, and a rifle bullet is the preferred thing for a big boar.
Then there is some fear that slugs may ricochet more than a rifle bullet, so they are prohibited in many drive hunts (you know, the owner and organizer of the hunt has the last word..). But this may well be a prejudice.

Slugs were widely used in the former DDR / GDR and older hunters there still say they worked for them, within their limits. But I think they are quite happy now to be able to use a rifle.

16 gauge, especially with a 65mm case unfortunately is "dead as the dodo" in modern Germany. Hard to find somebody who still uses the caliber.
My brother has a prewar Czech Lovena double rifle drilling 8x60R and 16/65, but as far as I know he never bothered with slugs. This is a heirloom piece from our grandfather, my brother invested lots of effort just to make the rifle barrels shoot together, including a new regulation in Ferlach, and he still calls it "a mimosa".

Regards, fuhrmann

The exaggerated "Kaisergriff" makes me wonder if the original owner suffered from the same kind of physical impediment as Kaiser Wilhelm II, for whom that type of pistol grip was named. I have a hard time imagining why someone would otherwise choose such an unaesthetic feature for an otherwise elegant weapon. Fortunately, there is plenty of material available, if the new owner should decide to have the stock altered to a more elegant form.

Wilhelm II apparently shot with the right arm only, see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H619OMr8VqI

I doubt this will work well with a 9 pound double rifle drilling (edit: unless you always have somebody carrying the tripod for you..it seems that Wilhelm favored light rifles and small calibers such as 6 mm).

Impedimented or not, it seems the original owner spent quite some thought on his rifle stock, to improve his shooting.
And he valued his ideas and the hoped-for results more than good looks.
Typical rifle nut behavior, I think.

fuhrmann

Fuhrmann:
I'd love to see y'all's Lovely Lovena DR Drilling. Don't know that I've viewed a DR drilling.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

sorry, my brother has the gun and I have no pictures of it.
I remember a rather hefty piece, not really "lovely".

Regards, fuhrmann

B�chsemann,
what Fuhrmann writes about slugs is right in some ways, in others I have a differnt opinion. Of course slugs are an "option": In former times we had some in the pocket when hunting hares and other small game for also beeing able to shoot a seldom roe or wild boar. My first gun was a Bockb�chsflinte(combination gun) in 7x75 RSE v. Hofe and, of course, 16/70. With Brenneke I had a Double rifle and that works well on shorter distances! In those times all friends and neighbours shot Cal. 16. 12 bore was only for the "Bauern" (Farmers) .� Sounds a bit snobbish and of course it was! But the idea was: A skilled shot didn't need Cal. 12 and beside this, a gun in 16 was much more elegant. I think,that's true till today as well.
But as we all know, the times are a changing, the industry wants to earn more money and "new" ideas are born. It's a little bit the same as with the Kaisergriff. The emperor shot it for physical reasons but I think there were soon some people who found it "chic" to have a gun or rifle with the Emperors grip. Today we have a hype on the "Lochschaft" - don't know the english word, I mean the grip with a whole for the thumb. All advertisement on modern guns praise this grip as the ultima ratio!!!
What I want to say is, all times had their trends and fashions.
The Kaisergriff is widely accepted in Europe for rifles but of course it's, as nearly all, a matter of taste!!!

The grip of your DR Drilling looks nice in my eyes, more as an extra big pistol grip then a Kaisergriff... and I think it was for a man like me:rather tall and with big hands. ;-) For him it surely was a practical advantage!

As for shooting slugs with your Merkel: Of course Kuduae is right: Usually the barrel will shoot lower with slugs and you have to try out how much!

Good luck and enjoi you nice rifle!
Gunwolf

Gunwolf,

I'm leaning in the same direction as you with regard to the "Kaisergriff" on this gun: "The emperor shot it for physical reasons but I think there were soon some people who found it "chic" to have a gun or rifle with the Emperors grip".

Also, the gun must have been made for a larger man or just someone with long arms as the LOP is 14 7/8" (37.78 centimeters). The weight of the gun turned out to be closer to 8 1/2 lbs. I am 6' even and 180 lbs. but the LOP is a little long for me. My .280 Ross clamshell double rifle has a 14 7/8" LOP as well which is something to be thinking about when trying to make a snap shot while wearing heavy clothing. Getting on a fast moving boar with little notice could be a bit of a challenge in early March.

Note on the .280 clamshell double rifle: Axel E. suspects the gun to be a Bernhard Merkel as well. I'd sure like to confirm that someday.

We'll see where the shot tube of the Bemesu DR drilling groups with the rifle barrels. If the group is too large I have other gun options to use a new Brenneke slug on a boar but as I want to do both I'll have to see about shooting two boar. It's an option that suits me just fine as I had a dismal deer hunt earlier in December. I like the taste of the boar that I've been shooting so having a second boar in the freezer and having time in the field with a couple early German combination guns is surely a good thing.

Regards,

Mark

Mark: I would almost bet money that the first owner was once Austrian! The "bow tie" feature behind the Kaisergriff is a clue (as is the grip and cheekpiece), but the engraving reminds me of work seen in Ferlach. It would be scary to know how much that engraving would cost today! Very practical gun as well. Steve

This LOP would be just right for me in a winter coat, I am 6' 5''.
Large hands too, but not THAT large to need such a long pistol grip.
I am actually in doubt if this should be called a "Kaisergriff", it lacks that "forward sweep" at the bottom.
Compare here: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....=true#Post95785
(I have seen some rifles with Kaisergriff and other interesting features from the Scherping shop in Hannover in the net - but do not know if they were made there or bought in from Suhl.)

That little "Krawatte" or bow tie behind the pistol grip is interesting, too. Michael Petrov named this the "Shelhammer Chinstrap" in his first book, saying that this became T. Shelhammer's "signature", before 1940.
Indeed you will find this chinstrap on plenty of Ferlach rifles, but all I have seen were newer examples built after WWII, often with a Kaisergriff (plus a hogback, Bavarian cheekpiece, Schnabel forend and all the other curves that generate the "Ferlacher Barock"), but this became fashionable only after 1970 or so. I do not remember having seen any pre-war Austrian stock with "Kaisergriff" or "Krawatte".

Anyway, this chinstrap needs a pretty steep pistol grip, and it is used well on this rifle to mask that protruding bottom of the grip.

My first impression when seeing the pictures in this thread was that this gun might have been restocked, maybe even in the US.
But as it appears to be the original stock, this is very interesting!

fuhrmann

Fuhrmann,

Thank you for the additional explanation with regard to the grip on this gun. I had been told that it was a "Kaiser Grip" and then "Kaisergriff" but after reading what you had to say I did a quick search and yes, the Heinrich Scherping rifles in the NE post and some other later guns shown on the Internet all have a forward sweeping hook (in profile) where the Bemesu looks simply more like an extended grip. The terms used to define the fillet wrapped around the interface of the grip and butt-stock is good to know as well. Whatever the reason for the extended grip I'll go with the notion that the gentlemen that placed the order for this gun was either Austrian or held an Austrian preference to stock design.

Regards,

Mark

PS - Yes, you would be less likely to have this gun get hung up in your armpit on a quick snap.

Mark,

that rifle might fit me like the proverbial glove!
Please allow me too repeat my doubt about this "Austrian link" - I don't think the "bow tie" is "Old Austria" and I do not see any other typical features in the stock.
Can't comment on the engraving, though, I never was much interested in this art.
Gravur schiesst nicht / engraving doesn't shoot, my dad used to say!

Regards,
fuhrmann

By the way, it will fit me too, I'm 6,5 and 95 Kg with big hands� ;-)

Fuhrmann may be right with the stock. Have a look at this nice Sauer & Sohn Suhl from the 1935ies :

Sauer & Sohn Suhl "Krawatte"

Hinterschaft mit Tr�ne, Krawatte und bayrischer Backe mit Doppelfalz, Schaftl�nge 370 mm!

The question is, if the stock is original Suhl or renewed....
The Krawatte is a styling element used by various Gunstockmakers till today.
But obviuosly it's preferred by southern Germany and Austrian/Ferlach makers.

Gunwolf

Fuhrmann,

Funny and true: "Gravur schiesst nicht / engraving doesn't shoot, my dad used to say!"

Similar things are said about automobiles.

I'm pretty much throwing my hands in the air with regards to the origins of the stock design but it has been interesting to read the many opinions and the terminology for the design features i.e. the little "Krawatte" or bow tie behind the pistol grip and "Kaisergriff", not mine apparently. On that note, do know the German name for the style of the cheek-piece on this gun. It�s not typical and it�s certainly isn�t �Tyrolean�.

Regards,

Mark

Gunwolf

I'd bet this is a new stock, new barrels too, maybe (3 inch shells in a 1935 shotgun?).
That buttstock has some newfangled tastelessness in it, who would have put a bavarian cheekpiece and "scottish" checkering to a shotgun in Suhl in the good old days?

Regards
fuhrmann

Fuhrmann,

In your last reply to Gunwolf are you referring to the subject Bemesu DR drilling?

Mark

B�chsemann,

found this on ebay:

Bernhard Merkel Katalog

May be interesting for you�!?

FGunwolf

B�chsemann,

have a look at this wonderful

Bernhard MERKEL Seitenschlossflinte Kal. 20/70 und WL 16/70 Vorkrieg im Koffer RARIT�T

on this site:

Bernhard Merkel Seitenschlossflinte

You can see similar details on the original stock on this gun of 1925

Best,
Gunwolf

Gunwolf,

Thank you for the heads-up on the Bernhard Merkel catalog but I already have one. I will be interested in seeing what it sells for though.

Regards,

Mark

Mark,

no, I was referring to the shotgun in the link that Gunwolf had provided as a further example for a "Krawatte".

To your earlier question regarding the cheekpiece of your Bemesu Drilling: no specific name comes to my mind. But I remember having seen similar cheekpieces with that somewhat "squarish" shape and the front end aiming forward into the wrist on German and Bohemian rifles from percussion and early centerfire times, say 1850 to 1870.
So it appears not out of place, but somewhat out of time.

Regards
fuhrmann

Fuhrmann,

A couple of others have said that the cheek-piece design was reminiscent of 19th century arms they had seen as well. I think we can agree that whoever ordered this gun was not your "Average Joe", as we say in the USA. He apparently was well to do and certainly didn't have a problem spending his money on engraving though gravur schiesst nicht (I like that one). This gun is also a little more "custom" than what we typically see, at least it�s not the norm for a Suhl gun, telling us that he was particular about what he wanted in a stock design, not just measurement. We will likely never know if his choice in grip specifications was out of fancy or need but it certainly has prompted some interesting discussion. The LOP is long for me but the gun balances nicely. If the weather holds as it is being forecasted today I hope to get out to my range this coming Sunday (afternoon) and finally see how it shoots. I'm crossing my fingers that right off the two rifle barrels group on a horizontal plain. If they do I'll see what if anything has to be done by way of custom loading to bring the two groups barrel distance apart. I won�t know for sure until I shoot it but it�s hard for me to imagine Bernhard Merkel letting anything he made leave his shop that wasn�t a good shooter besides being well made.

Regards,

Mark

B�chsemann,

some examples for showing - in former times as well as today nearly all is possible!

http://www.gewehrschaftherstellung.de/prod.htm
note thr last picture


http://www.waffen-schweigert.de/Lieferprogramm/UniversalS/universals.html
rather similar to yours

http://www.retzandson.com/de/werkstattleistungen
above right


http://www.retzandson.com/de/jagdgewehre/kombinierte-jagdgewehre/doppelbuechs-drilling
your pistol grip�

Best,
Gunwolf

This type of cheekpiece with the bottom edge running up to the comb nose goes by several names. I have heard it called "Altdeutsche Backe" = old German cheekpiece, but R.Mahrholdt in his Waffenlexikon called it "verlaufende deutsche Backe" = running out German cheekpiece as opposed to the common "runde deutsche Backe" = round German cheekpiece, the style even seen on many British rifles. Here is the one on my pre-1912 Haenel M1900:


A "Kaisergriff" ("Kaiser grip" is merely a try to translate it to English) need not be that exaggerated, hooked forward style. At least, the Kaiser did not have a gun with a hooked-forward pistol grip, but owned several with a close, upright pistol grip such as the one on this Bemesu dr drilling. As he had to shoot one-handed this allowed him to have better control of his rifle, but he used guns with normal grips too. See the GGCA's "Der Waffenschmied" #17. BTW, a capless, rounded, hooked forward pistol grip as seen on many 1970s Ferlach guns is named a "Pfeifenkopfgriff" = pipe bowl grip.

Kuduae,

Thank you for giving us the proper terms for the various cheek-pieces and grips. Thinking of all that has been said in this thread I hope others are enjoying the education as much as I am. As the horse is still kicking I have one last question (for this thread anyway) regarding cheek-pieces. While the cheek-piece with the bottom edge running up to the comb nose is referred to as an "Altdeutsche Backe" = old German cheek-piece or "Verlaufende Deutsche Backe" = running out German cheek-piece �



are there terms to differentiate the rounded back variety from the square back variety � (?)



I know, if I was a cat I should be dead � the curiosity thing

Mark

That square back variety like on this Bernhard Merkel drilling has no special name. IMHO it is a apecial "design" by the individual stockmaker, who thought it more "up to date" then. Remember, all those stocks were handmade, carved from a wood blank with a drawknife. A "Bayrische Backe" = Bavarian cheekpiece is that almost rectangular type, with both square back and front, often with a distinct flare out at the front bottom corner. The stocks by Schweigert and L�we (top) are "Bavarian", as both have a near corner at the lower edge before running up to the comb nose.

Here is an example of a thick "Bavarian" cheekpiece on a 1912 proofed Zella-Mehlis made falling block rifle. Note, it is deeper and thicker at the front than at the rear.

Kuduae,

Thank you again.

As they, the rounded and square backs, are without a formal name I will just refer to them in the future as either an "Altdeutsche Backe" = old German cheek-piece or "Verlaufende Deutsche Backe" = running out German cheek-piece with either a round or square back. It's also nice to have the German term (in German) used for the Bavarian cheek-piece. I appreciate your help with this.

Regards,

Mark

Another example of a "Bavarian" cheekpiece, this time a Mahrholdt - Peterlongo Stutzen on a Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, M21 action, proofed 1941:

I am new to this forum but I have hunted with Brenneke Slugs from Rottweil for about 37 years in Germany and Turkey for Wild Boar. I use both 16 ga. and 12 ga. and they are very effective. They are my preferred slug. Most shots at running game are made at less than 50 meters. 300-400 lb Boars in Turkey went down but there was usually no exit wound. I usually had an exit wound on smaller boars in Germany.

Nice old drilling. I have the same caliber combination in a Ferlach Vierling, just one extra shotgun barrel. 9,3X74R - 12/70 -12/70 - 9,7X74R.

Waidmannsheil

Baumgarten as well as I would like to see images of the Ferlach Vierling.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, indeed, me too!!! What's the weight?

Gunwolf

Euro Hunter,

Thank you for your field report on the effectiveness of the 16 ga and 12 ga Brenneke slugs on boar. It reads like they will do well on our whitetail and the feral hog population as well.

And yes, I am very interested in seeing pictures of your Vierling.

Mark

There was a discussion about the "Sauer Meisterst�ck" I found on a dealers website



I sent a mail to the dealer (serious one as I believe) and today get his reply:

"Sie haben auf unserer Homepage in unserer Galerie gest�bert und sind auf den Sauer&Sohn-Flinte �Meisterwerk�, Baujahr ca. 1935, gesto�en. Alle Waffen aus der Galerie sind durch uns bereits vermittelt oder verkauft worden! Die Waffe war in jedem Detail original bis auf das 1996 ge�nderte Patronenlager, welches im Auftrag des ehemaligen Besitzers auf 12/76 Magnum vergr��ert wurde. Gerade bei diesem Modell �Meisterwerk� konnte der Besteller jedes Detail nach seinem Wunsch gravieren, sch�ften und bauen lassen.

That means, all is original except the 12/76�!!!! It was a fully custom-made Gun by Sauer! Interesting to see, what was possible in that time. That corresponds with B�chsemanns Drilling, I think.
Here the Gun once more:

Sauer & Sohn Suhl "Krawatte"

Gunwolf

Gunwolf,

thanks for this info!

Well then, if they say so.....but let me confess I'm still not quite convinced with the complete originality of this stock. The doubts begin with the white spacers under pistol grip and butt plate.

On the other hand, there's no doubt that one always could get a stock "bespoke" in every detail in Suhl, so why not? We can't find out more without this gun in hand.

Let me add a very personal view : I do not like these renovations that make a gun appear "as new"...
Besides, this particular Sauer shotgun has been wounded badly by the quite needless rechambering to 3" shells.

Regards
fuhrmann

Gunwolf,

I'm curious, are you considering purchasing this Sauer&Sohn doppelflinte?

Mark

B�chsemann,
no, the gun is not available any longer, it's only shown on the traders website!

Fuhrmann,
I know what you mean and of course there remain some doubts�
As for the "renovation", I'm with you and prefere a moderate way of brush up and the 12/76 of course is complete nonsense!

Waidmannsheil,
Gunwolf

Buschemann, indeed a very nice double rifle, congratulations with it.
I have seen a picture of your rifle on a preview of the GGCA calendar for 2014 that Jon Spencer have send to me, so I have seen it before you put the pictures on the forum.
Marc.

Hi Mark:

I will try to add some pictures. I am new at this and not so tech minded.

[img:center]http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=21[/img]

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=17

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=18

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=20

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...?sort=3&o=0

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...?sort=3&o=1

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...?sort=3&o=4

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...?sort=3&o=5

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=22

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=12

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=13

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=14

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Jagdfr...sort=3&o=15

Euro Hunter,

Thank you for posting the pictures of your Anton Sodia vierling, it's very impressive; a nice example of Austrian firepower (Feuerkraft?) for sure. What is its year of manufacture? Do the two rifle barrels shoot well with factory ammunition or do you reload? Do you use Brenneke slugs in this gun or another gun?

GETTEMANS,

Thank you for your nice comment.

Mark

Euro Hunter, indeed a nice vierling, not often seen, congratulations with it. I am curious about your answers on the questions that Buschemann ask you. I while ago I have seen some nice vierlings on offer at E-Gun by the same maker, maybe it is you who bought the one you have now.
Marc.

Buchsemann,

have a look at the cheekpiece of this Drilling:

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4786271

Not as "squarish" as on your Bemesu rifle, but quite close to my eye.

This Oberhammer Drilling is old, my guess is from the 1880s.
As Oberhammer had filed own patents for Drillings, I would further guess that he made his guns in his own shop in Munich - but can't exclude he sourced from Suhl or Liege. Question for the experts...

Regards
fuhrmann

fuhrmann,

I sure like the lines of the, as Axel explained to us, "Altdeutsche Backe" = old German cheek-piece" or a "Verlaufende Deutsche Backe" = running out German cheek-piece such as that on the drilling that you have posted for us. I'm not familiar with P. Oberhammer and hope that one of our experts has something on him. I take it the lever on the right is the selector. It would be interesting to see the details of how it works.

Regards,

Mark

I have also noticed that drilling and I find it a very nice collectable piece of guncraftmanship. Sure that for his age (I also estimate the gun around 1880) he is is very good shape.
The rifle barrel is in 10 X 46 R and I have never hear of it.
Sure that Axel can clear this.
I think it must be interesting to see the proofmarks (if there are any proofmarks on the gun)
Marc.

Mark,

I also do not see how this selector works.
Peter Oberhammer opened his shop in Munich in 1872. Interesting to see that the company still exists:
http://www.waffenmuenchen.de/

In 1878 Oberhammer filed a German patent for selectors for drillings.
PeteM from this forum has found details:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=223652

However the selector in the patent drawing looks different (and very sketchy) and it's also hard to see how this one works.
The locking mechanism shown in the patent also looks "ancient", and is replaced by a more stable Jones underlever.

fuhrmann

Fuhrmann, I know Peter personaly and he put an incredible amount of work in this U.S. patent list and more anyone can consult this list for free, many thanks to Peter.
I visited the web that you mention and yes this is one of the survivers after the WW II like W. Brenneke who have his shop in Langenhagen. Furhmann, I agre with that that the patent is "different" from the pictured gun at E-Gun. I also not find info on this type of drilling in the Waffenschmied or Waidmannsheil issues that I have from the GGCA
Marc.

WowW This is the first time that I have seen PeterM's patent listing. I apparently missed it the first go around. Thank you Fuhrmann for including the link directing me to it.

Mark

Marc,
I believe the 10x46R is the 10mm version of the several old cartridges based on the 46mm long version of the "MB" case.This cartridge would be more or less equal to the old American 40-60 Win. I recently bought a BF in 10x42(the little brother to the 10x45),but haven't started to load for it yet.It would be interesting to work with a 10x46 at the same time.BTW the proof on mine is 1893-1912, so 1880 would be a little early for the drilling.The crown"V" on the dollshead shows it was in stock when the proof law came in to effect in early 1893, so it must be early 1900s.
Mike

Gentlemen,

I had only spent time studying what I could see of the selector mechanism on the P. Oberhammer drilling but looking at the same gun, as posted on NE (Nitro Express Forum), I noticed what appears to be a double diopter in the tang. What do you think, am I seeing things? If that's what it is, it is a first for me. Perhaps I just haven't been around enough to have seen such a thing before.

Mark

Mark,
The description in Egun,in German,clearly indicates two folding diopters and a folding rear sight, so you are not seeing things.I find the selector very interesting also.
Mike

Thanks Mike

I haven't picked up enough German to recognize "two folding diopters" (in German) if it were right in front of my face and in bold print. Curious, have you seen many of them? Given my understanding of their purpose, and through my own use of them (diopters), I am having difficulty understanding any benefit the large hoop would bring to target acquisition. Have you any field experience with them?

Mark

Der Ami, interesting info on reloading the 10 X 46 I thought that the seller of the gun ignored the kaliber and I started thinking about all the Gruendig kalibers who are almost all 10,75 X.............. I am curious to learn more about your reloading. I learn every day something more on this forum.
Thanks, Marc.

Mark,
I don't recall having seen a double diopter before this one.I don't know how common they are, I just didn't pay much attention to them before. There is a single one on the 10x42R (Val Kern)I just got, but Since I haven't started loading for it yet, I haven't tried it yet. Of course, I have often used American style peep sights, but I understand the German style is used differently.I understand you still use the rear sight, but through the diopter( to sharpen the sight picture). It seemed to help, but I havent actually fired it yet.
Mike

Marc,
This wouldn't be one of the Gruendig calibers, they came a little later . I wrote an article in "WAIDMANNSHEIL"(one of the German Gun Collectors Assn. publications)on loading generic 11mm cartridges. Except for bullet diameters, the 10x46R and 10x42R should fit into this catagory.I usually load all my own centerfire ammo,even for hunting. I have a couple different calibers that I will start using more factory ammo in,because I have a good amount of it on hand, but this is unusual for me.Handloading just expands the hobby and it is very satisfying to be selfsufficient and be able to shoot rifles I couldn't otherwise shoot.
Mike

Mike, I have all the Waidmannsheil issues can you tell me in with one you wrote that article it save me time. I think we had contact before but it is possible that I think wrong, if you are Mike Ford you gove me an answer on 9,3 X 82.
Marc.

Marc,
Yes, I am Mike Ford. The WAIDMANNSHEIL # 46 is the issue in question. I also wrote one about 9.3x72R that might give some help with your 9.3x82R.This one is in three parts and is in issues 39,40, and 41. We have had contact before,and I enjoyed your article also.
Mike

Mike, many thanks, I gona reread your articles.
I have seen Jon Spencer, Axel and Per-olaf Haggards in Kassel
Pitty that you wasen't there.
Marc.

Mark,
I haven't seen one like this before, either.
With the rather wide aperture and the rear sight (actually the "middle sight" / Kimme) flipped down, this might give a nice ghost ring sight.
This is not a standard accessory, and someone put a lot of thought and work into it. In that time there was a lot of experimenting, with cartridges, bullets, powder loads, locking systems, materials, and also with sights.

Fuhrmann

Marc,
Thanks for the kind words.Unfortunately I'm not able to do those things I used to be able to do.For several years Kassel would have been within easy driving range of my home.
Mike

Well, seems as if the Ferlach Vierling is available now�.:

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4788867

Gunwolf

Baumgarten's BeMeSu



"W. EBLEN (STUTTGART)
A 16-BORE / .22 HORNET / 6.5X57R BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR VIERLING, serial no. 2152,
24 3/8in. nitro barrel raised ramped matt top-rib with integral .22 hornet barrel, open sights, bead fore-sight, side-mounted Swarovski Habicht 6x42 Nova telescopic sight in quickly-detachable mounts, 2 3/4in. shot barrels, bored approx. 1/2 choke in both, 6.5x57R barrel with swamped muzzle cover with adjusting grub screws, lightweight alloy scroll-back treble-grip action with side-clips, removable striker discs, cocking-indicators, tang mounted shot / ball selector switch, manual side-safety, gold-washed triggers, the front a set trigger, horn triggerguard, acanthus scroll designs with game scenes of roe deer, waterfowl, pheasant and red deer, 13 1/4in. figured pistolgrip stock with sculpted cheekpiece, monte carlo comb, pistolgrip-cap, engraved ammunition trap, sling swivels, fish scale chequering and with 1/2in. rubber recoil pad, weight 8lb. 8oz."

Considering all in the thread above, anyone think this is a restock?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There's an interesting R. Bessel & Sohn, Sagan by BeMeSu on Connecticut Shotgun site possibly in Baumgarten's favourite calibre:

http://www.csmcspecials.com/product_p/24042.htm












November 1932

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse