doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Speed features in doubles

Stan,
your right about the late season doves. I almost forgot�.. my fovorite late season gun is not a dbl (I am asshaned to say)�. but an eary A-5 in 16 ga 30" full coke

Jerry

I think a lot has to do with a persons physical make up including his reaction time. In my case, I'm 6'4" 265lbs and 75. I now only shoot clays. I'm finding that, a 12ga with 32" barrels and a gun weight of 9 plus pounds works best for me. I no longer have lightning reactions - probably never had if the truth be told.
George

Gough Thomas (a well known and respected expert of 30 years ago for UK Shooting Times) believed that when correctly used, the true self opening side by side was the fastest without a loader. He used a Henry Atkin "Spring Opener" (Beesley/Purdey type self opening action).
The way it is used is this (for a right hander)
After firing, the right hand alone brings the gun down, whilst the left hand goes to belt/pocket for fresh cartridges. As the gun nears fully down position, the right thumb operates the opening lever. The gun self opens, ejecting the spent cases as it does so - meanwhile, the left hand has collected new cartridges and inserts these in the open breech. The left hand now goes to the barrels and closes the gun.
Done by a skilled, practised individual it is a very fast and very elegant technique, but it is quite hard to do well and needs quite strong hands!

I think the fact that you're shooting a sxs says you're not in much of a hurry nor trying to stack birds higher than the next guy. But I do like ejector guns.

A pump or auto indisputably has the edge to either get the third shot (or forth and fifth shots in some situations where legal) for anyone. For reloading I can get two more shells in a pump or auto faster than any double ive used, especially an extractor gun which adds another few hand movements.

On weekend clay shoots, our squad of misfits often will do a forced reload on a true pair with the second clay something like a teal presentation. The break open guns are much more difficult to reload a single shot and get the gun on target. But of course that's the whole point of our shenanigans. With a pump the mass of the gun is not swinging off target line much, and can even stay mounted if practiced a bit. The reload in a pump is faster by far for my feeble skills.

I agree that a pump or an auto is the fastest until the magazine requires reloading - which here in the UK is after a maximum of 3 shots normally (more require an additional type of license which is less easy to get). Pump or auto guns would not be used when shooting game formally (in the UK anyway). However, above magazine capacity, I still think the self opening s/s would win out in the hands of an experienced user.

John,

Gough Thomas and I had a private exchange of letters regarding his method of speed-using the double. He was an interesting man!

Inorder to open the top lever one handed the stock must be trapped between the elbow and trunk. I defy anyone to open a top lever without support of the butt and not lose his gun! Thomas agreed that it was so and his stock bore the scars to prove it he said.

A really "speedy" gun is the French Robust-Ideal, where the opening lever is behind the trigger guard and is pressed towards the grip, a truly single handed operation enhanced by the strong self opening action and the ejectors of this particular model.

On the other hand, there are the techniques developed by the Cowboy action people who can load, shoot, and reload a hammer double and get off 4 succesful shots in 4 seconds.

My single Baikal with a spur lever behind the trigger guard and auto ejector can be quite fast when using the Thomas routine. Perhaps due to the "hand finds hand" phenomenon being enhanced by the single chamber, it can often be faster than an ejector double.

All these tricks are fun to do. But I never needed them in actual hunting. Speed in fast accurate mounting, good balance and fit, in my experience, are more useful in getting off a fast and effective shot. Lately I got back action 410 Cogswell hammer double, and that thing is FAST. It got me thinking about this speed thing and thus this posting.

John
An experienced speed shooter with doubles would certainly beat me reloading a pump. But up against an equally skilled pump shooter, I'd put all my donuts up against dollars the pump shooter would be quicker. That Tim Bradley guy would likely be my dark horse.

But back to reality... for me, being of average shooting/reloading ability, I can reload a pump much faster than a double.

It is difficult. I have a Henry Atkin Spring Opener - and I can't do it, but I have small (and not particularly strong) hands. I knew someone who always did it with a Purdey. I'm not sure how exactly, but I don't recall the stocks being marked.

Incidentally, Gough Thomas's Henry Atkin was sold at Bonhams earlier this month (Dec 4th?) http://www.bonhams.com/press_release/15159/
It made just under �17,000 (GBP) inclusive of commission I believe.

Do we count jams in the pump and autoloader times?

A couple of days I had a really good spot in an Argentinian dove shoot. Shoot, open the ejecting breechloader, drop in two shells, close, look up and there will be birds there to shoot at. Over and over and over. I think that in that situation the breechloading ejector would at least keep up with the pump. If the pump jams only once then the breechloader would be faster, in my estimation.

When I compete in NSTRA field trials I carry a beat up, pinned wrist, bulged barrel eight pound Parker VH 12ga (non-ejector) choked cylinder and 20 thou. A couple of times a pen raised bob has managed to twice fly through holes in my pattern, then turn and fly back by me. I could not get off a third shot as I was fumbling getting the spent cartridge out of the chamber. Ejectors would have been nice in those two instances. Other than that I have not regretted the lack of ejectors in any of my extractor guns.

Mike
You just can't get good ammo these days. I've encountered large holes in the patterns of all my ammo as well.