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Forums10
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Apr 26th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
I have recently acquired a Holland and Holland hammer toplever Paradox that I am renovating. Barrels are original 28" length and 1/4 rear rib for rear sight and side clips. There is however a major problem. Unfortunately sometime in its history the choke rifling has been removed, out to bore diameter leaving cylinder bores in both barrels. I presume this was done to enable the firearm to be held on a shotgun certificate in the UK, as the bores are otherwise mirror and bright. My question is now what is best to do with this situation? Do I leave as is both cylinder bores, have them both threaded for thin wall choke tubes or is there a way to have paradox rifling inserts reinstalled in the barrels to return to as original?
Thank you for your experienced opinions.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622 |
What a shame. I don't know of anyone successfully restoring the choke rifling once it has been removed. The Holland paradox was an improvement over the smooth bore "ball and shot" gun which was used for essentially the same purpose as a paradox. Your gun may still function well as a round ball gun. Can you post some photos of the gun and the choke area?
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 234
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 234 |
Deer Creek,
If there is ample stock, your barrel thickness in the last several inches from the muzzle, I don't see why you couldn't have one or even both of your barrels bored and threaded to accept choke tubes, rifled or other. If wanted, carefully fitting (holding close tolerances) with the correct precautions to ensure that it or they are in for good along with the removal and flushing off of any slots or standing lugs used for installation would leave you with nothing more than a fine ring at the muzzle as trace that you have inserts. One could even "age" the finish at the muzzle to make the modification even less evident. If all this is within reason, financially, I'd say go for it and use the gun as it was intended.
Merry Christmas!
Mark
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6 |
I have always wondered about this problem. Have you called Jess Briley and asked him if he could reproduce the rifled section as a tube and then install as a permenant tube section. It would be worth the call. Roger Lake has all the specifications for the engineering to cut a tube to reproduce the ratchet rifeling sectin.
W. E. Boyd
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 624
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 624 |
I have some Hastings 12 gauge rifled chokes if you want to turn them down and make inserts. My contact info is in my profile. Here is my 16 gauge Paradox, a bit later than yours. 
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622 |
My vote is to leave as is and use as a ball gun.
Terry,
Is that the original stock on your 16?
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 624
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 624 |
No, the gun had been very poorly restocked in India. James Tucker in Medford, Oregon restocked it for me.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622 |
Pretty nice job. Were the barrels sound?
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 624
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 624 |
Barrels are sound; they were a bit frosty, but not pitted.
Steven Dodd Hughes is going to have it in his next Shooting Sportsman article. The current issue features the roots of the Paradox.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,486 Likes: 393
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,486 Likes: 393 |
I believe I may have had a look at this gun a couple months ago and passed on it because I couldn't imagine how the rifling could be restored. Would be the same gun if it came from the Burlington area. Good luck with it. I like the idea of discussing the problem with Briley.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
I have an update to this gun's story. I submitted it's serial number to H&H for a records book history report. It turns out that this gun was manufactured as a ball gun without choke and without rifling and it remains now in original condition as manufactured. What insight PM thank you. I will continue with a sympathetic wood cleanup and repair and barrel polish and reblacken but the good news is the gun does remain in original configuration as manufactured. Thanks to all,especially PM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,271 Likes: 202
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,271 Likes: 202 |
Interesting. What is the serial number ? I assume the number does not fall into the Paradox bracket.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
It does not fall in the Paradox number ranges of 11000 or 15000. It does however have Paradox style ribs and quarter rib which was the confusing part. It is in the 17000 range with date of manufacture of 1893.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,271 Likes: 202
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,271 Likes: 202 |
OK, that makes sense. Serial 17,000 - 18,000 was from 1893-1905 for guns and rifles. Sounds like you have a fun rifle.
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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What is the weight of the barrels and the weight of the gun? A photo or two would be a treat.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
The barrels weight is 3 lb 7.8oz.
The complete gun is 7 lb 0.1oz.
I will get some pictures here soon.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 97
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
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Deer Creek The gun will still be a great shotgun and with the right load development a great rifle. PM knows his stuff:) Here is one of mine [img:center]  [/img]
Last edited by JAZ; 01/27/14 08:52 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
 Here it is with horn extension, oil finish and a blacken.
Last edited by Deer Creek; 01/27/14 07:59 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hey,
I like it! Have a few more?
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Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
  Thanks PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Nice. And it has side clips?
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
Yes, side clips. Here it is in the fitted case. 
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553 |
Dear Deer creek The fact that is wasn't bored out must have made you do a Fosbury Flip high jump for joy indeed!...I have heard about that kinda thing, & once its gone, it's gone man, Sweet So now you have an awesome Ball Gun, just the way the shooting gods from H&H intended. I wish you 4 leaved clovers on the target paper mate Franc(cly) jealous 
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553 |
Dear Deer creek The fact that is wasn't bored out must have made you do a Fosbury Flip high jump for joy indeed!...I have heard about that kinda thing, & once its gone, it's gone man, Sweet So now you have an awesome Ball Gun, just the way the shooting gods from H&H intended. I wish you 4 leaved clovers on the target paper mate Franc(cly) jealous
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
I have recently acquired a Holland and Holland hammer toplever Paradox that I am renovating. Barrels are original 28" length and 1/4 rear rib for rear sight and side clips. There is however a major problem. Unfortunately sometime in its history the choke rifling has been removed, out to bore diameter leaving cylinder bores in both barrels. I presume this was done to enable the firearm to be held on a shotgun certificate in the UK, as the bores are otherwise mirror and bright. My question is now what is best to do with this situation? Do I leave as is both cylinder bores, have them both threaded for thin wall choke tubes or is there a way to have paradox rifling inserts reinstalled in the barrels to return to as original?
Thank you for your experienced opinions. Bringing barrels to original would not be cost effective. Happily all you're likely to need is bucket of B&P 12ga 65mm 1 oz target slugs.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
Thanks everyone. Sure was lucky with this one.
What do you think a ball gun like this is worth compared to a Paradox? Just wondering.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 20 |
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 820 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 820 Likes: 1 |
I'm curious how accurate a ball gun would be with smooth bores at 50...75 yards.. or what was it intended for?
monty
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