doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Recoil in a Paradox gun?

I believe I have read that the ball/bullet to be fired in a Paradox gun should be a relatively loose fit in the smooth bore section.
when it's fired, & hits the rifling section, could that initial contact with the fairly chunky rifled end kinda grab & slightly pull the gun away from the shooter,reducing recoil...theoretically ,at least
franc

Short answer, "No." It is a momentum thing, IMO. If the slug were to decelerate, even a small amount, there would be a gas hammer behind it and a bulged barrel a distinct possibility. Total recoil is, of course, dependent on ejecta weight and velocity. Said momentum is translated to free velocity of the recoiling gun, depending on its weight. Said weight and velocity of the gun give recoil energy. "Felt recoil" may have to do with instantanious acceleration of the ejecta. That is, the shooter "feels" the rearward acceleration, or maximum acceleration, as opposed to the total recoil (that ought to start a debate!!!). Anyway, I dn't see how ejecta can "grab" the barrel and pull the gun forward.

DDA

Could it be that a bullet spends so little time in a barrel once the cartridge is set off that the shooter can't tell if they're feeling maximum acceleration (bullet still in the barrel?) or 'recoil energy'. Maybe, for the shooter to 'feel' recoil, there has to be some acceleration, or force. Wouldn't the gun stop recoiling once the velocity of the 'ejecta' stabilized.

I recall a short article about a Marlin lever gun had six or eight bullets lodged in the barrel. I believe the shooter said he felt no noticable recoil and only heard a low muffled sound every time he pulled the trigger. None of those bullets cleared the muzzle, but if maximum pressure was developed in the chamber or just in front of it, those bullets developed some maximum acceleration and then of course deceleration.

Loose in smooth part of barrel can't be good for accuracy. My Ithaca 37 smoothbore bird gun with rifled choke and Lightfield Lites will shoot cloverleafs at 50m. With Foster type slugs one is lucky to hit large milk jug consistently at that range.

It would be "Extremely" doubtful with that many bullets stuck in the barrel, especially as you did not mention a bulged barrel, that any of them reached maximum breech pressure. Sounds as if he had some bad ammo of some sort, which did not reach maximum acceleration.
I do not believe that an un-bulged barrel is a guarantee there was absolutely no check to the projectile, but simply there was not enough check to produce a bulge. The severity of the hammer would of course be dependent upon the extent of the check. It would seem unreal that if the ball is large enough to be engraved by the rifling that at least a "Slowing of Acceleration" if not a slight check would indeed occur.

It one could convince Italians to provide rifled top barrel and folding sights on that Chiappa 'Triple Threat' deal they would have quite a gun. The "8lb" weight would take sting out of recoil as well. SxS barrels for bird shot/BK shot plus rifled barrel on top for sabot slugs for big game cool eh?

Paradoxes have less recoil than a fully rifled gun given the same cartridge charge and bullet weight. Holland took advantage of the reduced recoil by shaving 2 to 3 lbs off their big bore paradoxes. Paradox bullets do "rattle" (.001 under bore) to the choke where this is a .002 restriction just prior to the rifling There are 40 to 45 points of choke in the rifling.

Two 8 bores. Both 10 dram 1250gr guns Paradox on the right.

My take on this story.

DDA

[quote=PM]Paradoxes have less recoil than a fully rifled gun given the same cartridge charge and bullet weight. Do you have an explaination for ths lessoned recoil? Something other than lower velocity? Holland took advantage of the reduced recoil by shaving 2 to 3 lbs off their big bore paradoxes. Paradox bullets do "rattle" (.001 under bore) to the choke where this is a .002 restriction just prior to the rifling There are 40 to 45 points of choke in the rifling. Some serious extrusion going on in that choke section!!!

DDA

Same velocity. It must be something related to less friction in the smoothbore section. Holland was quite adamant concerning their rifle weights and recoil. The 8 bore was advertised as reduced weight better handling and increased velocity as compared to a fully rifled arm. Reduced weight because of lighter recoil. I can attest the 8 paradox balances magnificently and shoulders like a much lighter gun.

Ross Seyfried did an article in Rifle/Handloader from maybe 2002 +/- about paradox guns. His contention was that by having freebore, no-rifled section, and then only a short rifle section there was a much reduced recoil effect compared to what he thought should normally happen in a big bore of similar velocity/projectile weight.

Try oldwestgunsmith.com/whatsnew.htm for an example. There are others that seem to be easy to search, but the author of this example likely has some credibility. It's a similar theme, some bore obstruction, usually a squib load, and then some actions and barrels manage to contain/vent multiple shots, bulge or no bulge. I thought it was a take on your original recoil comment.

Kind of an extreme example and not mentioned in this account was the thought I was trying to bring across. I suspect mass, bullet and gas, has to separate from the gun (out the muzzle with velocity) to feel what most folks consider recoil. Maybe, the near equal force of stopping the bullet within the gun and venting gasses laterally somewhere, doesn't 'recoil' the rifle in a familiar way even though the bullet could be shown to have accelerated. I'd be pretty sure movement could be felt by the shooter, but I don't know if they would call it 'felt recoil'.

Assuming favorable weather conditions scoped TarHunt is good to 200 paces. What is practical range of English-made Paradox gun?

With ammo like this


In a rifled choke gun like this



Your hunt is possible.

'Scuse me, I have a problem understanding this issue of a Paradox having less recoil than a bore rifle all things being equal.

1. A Paradox has less friction in the smooth section of the barrel.

2. Less friction means either:

2.1. Bullet will go faster with same amound of powder

2.2. Less powder is needed to start the bullet with the same velocity.

3. In 2.2 the pressure will also be lower, allowing to make barrel thinner and gun lighter.

4. Provided that recoil is function of Newtonian action-reaction law, same charge (2.1) = more velocity out of Paradox = more work (mass by velocity) produced by the Paradox: there's also the same total amount of powder gases, and probably more leftower gases at muzzle in the Paradox (less time in the barrel for them to burn).

5. All of 4 = more, not less recoil out of Paradox with 2.1.

6. Now, in case of proportionally smaller charge in Paradox (2.2), there's same work (same velocity), less powder gases in Paradox, and similar amount of leftover gases at muzzle = less recoil and pressure in Paradox.

7. But same velocity and less recoil with same charge? Something doesn't add up.

Query: what factor am I missing?

UPD: The Rocketman's comment above wasn't there when I was typing this.

Ross worked up loads for my Evans and it shoots an honest 3 to 4 -inch L/R x L/R four round group at 100 yards. I bet it would do three if my eyes were younger. I have never fired a group at paper farther than that. I can personally testify that it will roll a warthog at eighty and drop sand grouse at forty. Perceived recoil is like any normal twelve of a pigeon weight gun. It is a different art than shooting a double rifle, and I believe that has everything to do with barrel dwell time - a combination of relatively long tubes and slow velocity compared to something like a .470. One really has to consciously follow through much more than one would with an express rifle.

15lb gun 7-71/4"
Advertising for the period indicates increased velocity (I don't have a fully rifled Holland 8 but had another makers gun here for a while a 17lbder and velocities were similar). The fact that the majority of the big bore pdxes were made a couple of pounds lighter than fully rifled guns is a "smoking gun" indication of lighter recoil.
If you have an interest or curiosity in the paradox you might want to invest in Roger Lakes book "Paradox" It would be impossible to duplicate the information in this book, if one were to try and do so on his own.

The big bores and the Super magnum are considerably faster (450 to 500fps).

I said somewhat less recoil not no recoil.

I will have an H & H 16 gauge Paradox at my table (within the group of tables for the Lefever Arms Collectors) if you are bringing your scale and spinner. I'm not sure how that would add light to this discussion, but you are certainly welcome to take any and all measurements!

We need to compare apples to apples. We were talking about 8 bore conical guns And let me get the semantics correct without any puffing;
The 8 bore paradox has the ability to shoot a conical bullet of the same weight with the same powder load at a higher velocity than the fully rifled arm and with lower recoil. Holland and Holland took advantage of the reduced recoil to shave a pound or two off the paradox. That would mean recoil would be similar to that of a pound or two heavier fully rifled gun. I would believe the same could be said for the 20,12 and 10 bore paradox guns in comparison to corresponding rifles with similar loadings.
The 8 bore paradox was never offered with a nitro loading.
As to recoil decide for yourself;

Looking at those recoil figures, I have to wonder how they ever got anyone to shoot one of the larger bore guns more than once.

The formula for Recoil Energy (Kinetic) is RE = �MV�.
A 15 lb gun recoiling @30 FPS will give that 210 FtLbs of recoil energy shown for the 8 Bore with 1257 grain "Ball" @ 1500 FPS, matters not whether its rifled, smooth or part of each.
Take a 12ga half that weight (7�lbs) & fire 1� oz to 1250 fps & you will get a recoil velocity of about 15 FPS or half that quoted for the above 8 gauge. This 7� lb gun recoiling @ 15 FPS will give a recoil energy of 26 FtLbs or 1/8th that of the 8 bore.
Note that on the weight side of the formula the change is linear while on the velocity side it is proportional to the Square, thus multiplying both factord by 2 gives not 4 times the RE but 8 times.
Of importance though is KE is highly subjective. Of far greater importance to the person firing the shot is the Recoil velocity which in these two cited examples has doubled.

[quote=PM
15lb gun 7-71/4"

Objective handling of the Paradox should be something like the "more or less comparables" that follow:

W. J. Jeffery Double Rifle BLNE, .600 NE, 24" bbls, 14 3/8" LOP, weight = 14# 8 oz, balance = 5 3/8", unmounted swing effort = 2.70, Mounted swing effort = 14.89, compactness = 9.29

Westley Richards New Drop Lock BLE 2009 Production, 8 bore, 34" bbls, 15 1/4" LOP, weight = 12# 7 oz, balance = 7 5/8", unmounted swing effort = 3.38, mounted swing effort = 17.43, compactness = 11.22

Greener SXS side lever hammer NE #11510, 10 - 2 7/8" bore, 36" dam bbls, 14 1/4" LOP, weight = 11.56, balance = 7", unmounted swing effort = 3.08, mounted swing effort = 14.34, compactness = 11.11

Subjective for the above is as follows: weight is " very, very heavy" ie. lots for muscle effort to lift and carry, balance is very forward, but, generally managable, and both mounted and unmounted swings are very slow. The unmount swings are at the top end of heavy target guns and the mounted swings are near heroic at about 1/3 more than heavy target guns. If unfamiliar with such heavy guns, consider shooting a typical pair of game guns --- at the same time!!! The foregoing is in no way intended to imply "poor" handling, rather it is intended to show that such guns do, indeed, require considerable muscle effort.


Advertising for the period indicates increased velocity (I don't have a fully rifled Holland 8 but had another makers gun here for a while a 17lbder and velocities were similar). The fact that the majority of the big bore pdxes were made a couple of pounds lighter than fully rifled guns is a "smoking gun" indication of lighter recoil.
If you have an interest or curiosity in the paradox you might want to invest in Roger Lakes book "Paradox" It would be impossible to duplicate the information in this book, if one were to try and do so on his own. [/quote] I can't come up with a plausible explaination as to why a Paradox might have lower recoil than a fully rifled gun. I suspect that H&H may well have discovered that they could get the same performance on game with the Paradox as with a fully rifled gun. They also knew that they could cut a "couple of pounds" off the weight of the Paradox, but not the rifle (say 15% weight reduction) but also knew that reducing weight would cause a sales problem unless they addressed recoil. Consider the concern for recoil expressed in this thread!! Sooooo, the advertising department "decided" that the Paradox, for unexplained reasons, had less recoil than the rifle. We all know how committed to truth ad departments can be. And, by the way, looking at the recoil and KE table, is it any wonder the .577 and .600 NE's eclipsed the 8 bore?

DDA

Were not comparing 16 bore upland game guns to DG bore rifles here. There are no illusions; DG bore rifles are heavy but the Holland 8 paradox when compared to like weapons shoulders and swings like a much lighter gun. When it is between your hands and on your shoulder it does not feel like a 15lb gun. That may be subjective and jmo but I would not be the first to voice it in this century or the one previous.

On a subjective basis I already have. What bore rifles do you have at your disposal?

Hype the paradox? In what respect, the big bores (8s,10s), the versatility?

I just wanted to perhaps explain my Q better...bare with me
My point was if a roundball/bullet is under sized for the bore, as Ross Sefried suggests for a paradox...
The projectile is racing ,kinda friction free down the bore..it then slams into the meaty , wide n deep Paradox rifled section at the muzzle.
Wouldn't the energy of that bullet, when it hits the first part of the chunky rifling, hammer into that, & as the rifling cuts& grabs into the bullet wouldn't that give the gun a slight shunt away from the shooter.... downrange?
I realize the gun is recoiling, but thought the slam into the rifling might push the gun away, thus slightly reducing felt recoil
I can't see how this wouldn't happen?.It would be impossible to measure though..youd have to remove the rifling section to find the dif'..duh
Sorry to repeat, but don't understand why not
franc D- in Physics

There was some thought earlier about felt recoil occurring at maximum acceleration. If that holds to be true, isn't maximum pressure seen around the chamber. Seems like in that case, if the ball engages rifling right away, it should produce less recoil. If friction is pulling the rifle away from the shooter to some degree that can be distinguished by the shooter.

Its been many years ago but I fired a 3.5" Rocket launcher. Realize of course this is nothing but an open tube to guide the rocket & has no closed breech. There was a definite forward pill from the friction as the rocket went down the tube. As it cleared the muzzle the ejecting gasses would give a slight rearward thrust to the tube from contacting the bell placed on the end to protect the firer. I can feel the barrel movement in a long recoil gun such as the A-5. Other than these two examples I have never felt anything but one continuous push. Realize that the instant the gasses start expanding from burning the powder the projectile starts moving one way & the gun the other. Both have reached their maximum acceleration as the projectile clears the muzzle. The escaping gasses does play a small part to accelerating the gun Just a Wee bit longer than the projectile.
The projectile has obtained its Muzzle'V & the Gun its Recoil'V.
"IF" for instance the projectile has reached 1200 FpPS & the gun perhaps 15 FPS, then the projectile is traveling 80 times as fast as the gun. This has all occurred in less than .003 of a second during which time the projectile has traveled the length of the barrel & the gun something on the order of 5/16-3/8 of an inch.
Built in Inertia/Momentum carries both for the rest of their travel. Sure if you have a significant difference in "Measurable" recoil you can feel it. When it comes to "Feeling" differences which cannot be measured, I will just say "The Power of Suggestion" is very strong in a lot of people.

No big deal here Miller. I think, when the bullet, and gasses, clears the muzzle, it probably reached maximum velocity, not maximum acceleration. It might be like riding in a car, when it's going at a steady speed, you can't feel it change speed, or accelerate.

Realize that when the procjetile clears the muzzle, the entire barrel is full of gases. They continue to exit & pick up speed in doing so. The gun may well continue to accelerate for a teeny weeny micro second longer than the projectile, but it will be so continuous, & in the same direction, you won't actually feel it as a separate component as with the rocket launcher example. It will just be a part of the recoil.
It is though noted that powder charges in proportion to total load are normally quite small in a shotgun. Compare for instance a 1oz load in a 12 gauge total wt of shot, wads & powder may reach 500 grains. If the powder charge were 20 grains then it would make up only 4% of the entire weight to be ejected. On the other hand if we took even the low powered .30-30 with a 150 Gr bullet & a 30 Gr powder charge the powder makes up 16.666% of total ejector wt. Thus the ejecting powder gasses from a .30-30 make up a higher portion of the recoil than do the gases from a shotgun. You still however do not "Feel" them separately, but just as a single "Kick". If we went to a larger .30 cal cartridge which used a 180 gr bullet over 60 grs powder then the powder is a full � of the total wt. This is why recoil reducers
(muzzle brakes) are so much more effective on rifles than shotguns. Even so their is a small component of gases exiting the muzzle after the wad has cleared & this does contribute to the recoil.