doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The Future of English Gunmaking????

The quote attributed to Bob Brister is stolen from Greener. Anecdotally it was a response from Purdey to Greener when the observation was posed about the hard closing of self openers. Greener reputedly answers, 'So you admit you have a problem".

If you can't close a self-opener quickly and easily, it is either set up wrong or your technique is wrong. It is easy to learn, if a tiny bit different. Far too much has been made of the observation. In my experience, it is a total non-issue.

Sorry if that was a bit off tangent. One of my pet hates is repeated observations from historical literature passed off as originally observed truth. It perpetuates myths. It is unreliable and, IMO, spurious.

I'd agree that if mutual, it would be reasonable to get some partial credit (not market) for a service that was deleted, but there could be reasonable business decisions by the maker. If a maker has a wait list anyway, it might be an unreasonable risk to the reputation, name, to have an improperly finished gun being criticized out in the marketplace. I'd assume if it's the bespoke game, the thing that someone would not want deleted would be the name.

I have to offer a mild defense of the journalistic integrity of the late Bob Brister, who in many ways was a piece of work and perhaps guilty of the occasional side slip. But not on this occasion. He stole nothing.

He didn't claim the quote for himself. He attributed it to a gunroom representative, as an illustration of a broader point he was making. Perhaps the clerk 'stole' the quote or used it without attribution. It would hardly be the first time a gun salesman left something out to overcome a potential customer's objection. Or perhaps the sales clerk didn't. In any event, an attribution to Greener would have been irrelevant to the point Brister was making. And sales patter is hardly subject to the same citation standards as scholarship published in an academic journal.

In response to a witty statement by James McNeill Whistler, Oscar Wilde said �I wish I�d said that,� to which Whistler replied: �You will, Oscar, you will!�

No offence intended to BB, juts the quote being attributed to him here.

The quote from Brister as I recall was written in American diction "sure is hard to close" is more American phrasing than English. Us non native speakers tend to notice these details.

As to the subject matter at hand:

Innovation as in laser engraving, CNC machinery and the like, is a good thing, as long as the people using it are gunmakers. To draw a parallel from experience, computer graphics are a good thing when used by trained graphic artists. Untrained people tend to overuse the features of software like Photoshop and Corel and I have seen the same unnecessary overuse by some machinists and CAD draftsmen.

I wonder if there is a buying public for an economy double built by gunmakers using modern means but still having that crafted feel and look. That it can be done is not the issue, but how many would buy it. Having seen how many keep a safe full of top guns and hunt with a gas auto I wonder about the size of the potential market.

You have summed it up well thre. The B&E over/under is a British gun, built by a British firm from British parts and materials (not the wood obviously).

Pete Boxall understands the machinery and they have just recruited a gunmaker from Holland & Holland to oversee the final finishing and input whre required. Mike Yardley advised on the stock shape and handling. So, the gun is being made with a good deal of British tradition and gunmaking know-how behind it. It is priced to compete with European guns at a price point well below the nearest British O/U availale elsewhere.

The market will show us if there is sufficient interest in the product at the price. Time will tell.

At the Game Fair I took the opportunity to look at both the B&E and the Longthorne offerings. For their prices, I was impressed with what they produced.

The feeling is of an artisan shop with a small number of dedicated, knowledgeable and skilled professionals, including software operators, as well as gunsmiths. Each contribute to the service and product offered.

I was especially impressed with the 27 kilogram steel (from Sweden incidentally!) billet that Longthorne shape, polish, drill and black to form their tubes. With modern machinery and engineering tolerances the barrels should be regulated exceptionally well. In addition, they are much lighter than normal; 1,240 grams with a wall thickness of 38-42 thou for 30" barrels, against typically 1,490 grams for a similar spec Italian set.

If I was in the market for a new gun to use I would have both these English firms on my shortlist. I rather like my old hand me downs though!

Tim

Why when a discussion arises about the british gun trade do people automatically talk about the big three eg. Purdey , holland and boss ? In the trades hay day in late victorian and edwardian times there were dozens of provincial and london/birmingham gunmakers who's products might not have been quite up to the standard of the big three but were very good never the less. Stephen grant, rigby's , charles hellis, philip webley, lancaster, edwinson green etc etc.
Maybe B&E had the sense to do a bit of market research and realise there is no room for a young upstart in the high-end of the market, seeing this as a road to ruin (symes and wright springs to mind) , but there might be a niche for a largely machine made but hand finished gun. Purdey themselves have gone down this path with some of their guns now made in italy.

Tim's final comment is an excellent illustration of an important point. The competition that these new gun makers face isn't just from fine foreign firms, it's also from old hand me downs. The useful life of a lightly used, well maintained gun that was first class when made is pretty close to indefinite. By way of analogy--the current makers of Steinway pianos (the very good brand of piano) have frequently said that their toughest competitors are not the Asian piano builders (who are capable of making very good pianos themselves) but the used Steinways of previous eras, when they have been reconditioned, refurbished and rebuilt.

As for the question of whether there is a public market for an economy double built using modern techniques but with a traditional feel to it, I think the answer is 'yes'. But I'm not sure that the B&E offerings, at their price points, are 'economy' guns by any measure except comparison to a very rarified peer group. I can say that, if one wants such an economy double for less than USD 1k, the answer is spelled Huglu. If you want to define the economy price point as less than USD 10k, the answer is spelled CSMC (and there are other answers, as well--many of them being from Brescia). As I indicated, I personally have a little trouble calling B&E price range 'economy' anything.