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Joined: Jul 2013
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Hi, I happen to read a couple of your notes on here from the past and as I understood it there was talk about 12mm shot shells being the predecessor to 410's way back when.
I recently got a Smooth Bore Dumonthier Cane gun handed down from a family member/s and know nothing about it. However it measured out for a shell size of about .471 for the base and about 2" in length and is a center fire. Also slugged the bore and it measures out about .442 diameter.
I have did a little checking here and there and found that this company Supposedly made these from 1875 into the 1890's but don't know when this one was made however I did find someone that had one similar but there's shot 410 shells and they didn't know when theirs was made either.
So I got a 410 spent shell from a friend of mine and cut it down to 2" but the rim is too thick and the handle won't close. So I talked to my friend and he gave me a 44 Webley & 44 bulldog case as he said the base is the same size but the rim thinner. It fits, closes and fires a primer, the rim is about .045-.050 thick.
So one other thought I had, just because it's a smooth bore designate it to be only for shot shells or because of the close range they didn't think it mattered in a cane gun back then?
So I thought I would check to see how familiar anyone might be with the measurements of the early center fire 12mm shot shells and is there rim thinner than 410 shot shells. Any thoughts would be much appreciated and if there is any available I may be interested if they end up being what I need for brass. Thanks!

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gunner,
I can't help with factory ammo,but if you or your buddy can handload,you shouldn't have a problem. I use 444 Marlin cases to load for my 410 pistol(I have papers)and the dimensions you gave seem to show they would work for you with a couple modifications. You would have to shorten the cases by 1/4" or so and maybe thin the rim.I would suggest thinning from the rear and use pistol primers.If still not thin enough, take a little off the front side.
Mike

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Guner,
I believe that "12mm" is just another name for the .410 cartridge.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=collecting-410-shotshells

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Mike, yes that kinda was my ace in the hole if I didn't find something that was specifically made for this Dumonthier. You see I have a Ruger made by Bowen Classic Arms that is a Paradox Revolver 45 cal. and 44 cal/44 shot shell with 3/4's of the barrel being smooth bore and the last 1/3 with rifling and it also uses the 444 cases cut down to the length of the cylinder. Very handy little 6 shooter and they did a class A job although when I talk to Bowen he didn't seem as excited about them as I was and I have to admit they may not have went over good enough to do all the testing and work it seems they did to get it right. Anyway I'm rambling and earlier today I had a response from here that they did make a specific cartridge marked with a head stamp of 12mm Canne for the French cartridge and 12mm W.S (walking stick) for the euro cartridge. That was very helpful as I didn't know that something like that cartridge existed. So if I can't get some of those I will be making some from the 444 cases into what I need. I really appreciate the help and info. Thank You very much!!

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Steve, yes from what I have learned the last few days is that the French/Euro 12mm shot shells from way back when I guess about the mid to late 1870's-1880's lead to the 410 but the Cane I have takes a thinner rim than a regular 410 shell from what I found so far. The rim on the early 12mm shot shells is evidently only about .048 thick +/- so I may end up making some cases out of 444 Marlin cases if I can't purchase some thing in a 12mm with that size of a rim thickness. Thank You for the heads up!

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Hi! Looking for some 410/12mm brass head stamped shot shells in about 2" length empty or full for an old French gun. Most of them I have seen have been made by Eley or US Cartridge Co. and maybe other brands. They are not the ones that they first put out for this as those are marked 12mm CANNE or 12mm W.S. and are probably gone or used up by now. However these will work fine as they have the thinner rim thickness and I have one cartridge that a nice elderly gentleman gave me to see if it would work as he had one spare he said he could part with and it fits nicely. Also need some Good Berdan primers made by RWS #6507 or Eley #172 and there measurement is .254 x .133 I was told. If anyone knows what other Berdan primers will work let me know. I guess I'll be making some brass cases out of 444's or something similar if I can't find any that already fit but I thought it was worth buying some for a couple hundred bucks to save some work I don't really have time for so it is worth a try. If anyone has any that could use a welcome home let me know. Thanks!!

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PM sent I have a full box of factory loaded US cartridge


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