doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired

After months of preparation and waiting for all the loader, loader components, and reloading components I have finally been able to take my Louis Christophe by Jules Bury 10.75x52R Springer Double Rifle to the range.

I will meander through some of the background on my journey and process.

When I purchased the gun it included the dies and about twenty loaded rounds. The reloaded rounds and brass were 45-70 Brass which was still original length and not trimmed down to 52mm. Based on a notation in the die box I thought it might be H4198 powder. I disassembled a few of them to check their content and determine it was not 4198 powder. Further the powder filled less than 60% of the case and no filler wads were being used, lots and lots of airspace. The cartridges varied by as much as 9 grains in powder weight. I further determined the bullets were straight 0.430 210 grain and not resized to 0.423. Whoever loaded them did not slug the bore and resize the bullets. He may of measure the muzzle which is almost .429 and believed that was the bore size. Bottom-line when purchasing a gun with reloads, it is important to check a few to ensure you know what is in them is correct.

I utilized the only one load I could find online (258grain Bullet/45.0 grains N135) as a benchmark and derived data using Quickload software. I further used data from similar sized cartridges as further reference to see if the data made sense.

I loaded five sets of six cartridges in predicted velocities from 1700 to 1800 using .44 Magnum (.430) 240grain Hornaday XTR (copper jacket hollow point). I had to use the Hornaday Bullet stepped down through several steps to .423 as the 258 grain bullets I custom ordered from Hawks have yet to arrive and I could not wait further. I used Privi 8x56R brass for two sets of loads and Starline 45-70 government brass for three sets.

On the Privi Brass as it comes necked down I initially fire formed them with Unique Powder and Cream of Wheat; then put both them and the Starline brass through the CH4D dies. Both required significant trimming which I need to get better at. Long term I believe I will invest in a power trimmer set-up as the manual CH4D trimmer is a pain.

After firing I could not sense any performance difference between the Privi 8x56R Brass and the 45/70 Brass. There was a 2 grain difference in case volume (74 vs 76 grain). Also the Privi brass has a slightly thinner rim. I still need to clean the fired brass and carefully inspect, but range inspection did not show anything.

All the loads were done with N135 powder. Later I will do some additional loads in IMR3031, Reloader 17, and H4198. They ranged from 44.9grains to 47.9 grains. They filled the case between 77% and 88% and although I probably did not have to I used cut in half Kynock foam filler wads to ensure a 100% fill.

On this initial firing I stayed at 1800 FPS and below. On pressure I stayed between predicted pressures of 14,581 to 12,848 PSI. I say predicted as I have no way of checking the pressure delivered at this time. I also have no sure way to know true max pressure for this cartridge. I have settled on 30,000 PSI based what similar cartridges. I doubt I will risk above predicted 24,000 PSI if I ever even go that far. I was not able to Chronograph the loads tested. I will attempt to chronograph the next firing. I have derived Quickload data to get up to 2000 FPS and to 19,300 PSI. At this point I am not sure I will take it that fast and that high a pressure.

I note this is my first adventure in rifle reloading.

The only loading issue I encountered while reloading is the loose bullet after final press. In other words instead of a tightly crimped bullet the bullet is loose and can be easily pushed and pulled. As my barrel was slugged at 0.423/0.424 the bullets I used were resized to 0.423. I resized a bullets to 0.424 which was still loose, I then resized to 0.427 which resulted in a tighter bullet fit but still not tight and too large a load to fire through my 10.75 bore (in my opinion). I am considering order in a custom crimping die which will give me the final tightness I want. My other option could be a bullet crimper from Stephen Coker (which I am ordering as a case accessory anyway). Because of the loose bullet seating I only loaded and fired one round at a time as I did not want the recoil of the right barrel to unseat a bullet on the cartridge in the left barrel.

I fired from a table with the gun resting on my hand which in turn rested on a sand bag. I fired six rounds alternating barrels in each set. I loaded one barrel, fired, ejected the empty, then loaded the second barrel and repeated. I did not rest the gun more than a minute between shots, with some rounds within 20 seconds. Between sets of rounds there was as much as 15 minutes.

When I first fired I missed the target board completely and could not tell exactly where the rounds were missing except that they hit online on the dirt bream behind the target. I moved the target into 25 yards and determine I was shooting low. I change my sight picture and began to get properly on paper (my first sight picture put the target circle on top of the front sight circle forming a figure eight � I changed to placing the front sight on the center of the target ball). I further flipped up the leaf which elevated the shot group and created a sharper V and that helped. I moved back out to 50 yards again. All said I still feel it is grouping slightly lower than I would want with the sight picture I like to take.

I failed to bring a proper spotting scope and cannot say for sure the order of rounds on the target or which is left and right barrel. Along with chronographing I need keep better record of the fall of each target hit, so I can label each round R1, R2, R3, L1, L2, L3.

I was concerned about how light the rifle when it came to felt recoil. I can report that the loads were comfortable and did not beat me up at all. I was concerned about whether the triggers were be good and the double triggers felt great. Much better than many military rifles I have had to shoot.

The only target photo I am posting is my final target. I only loaded 30 rounds on the initial firing so I ran out of ammo by the time I fixed my sighting issues so I am not sure if I have best performance or not. It is my fastest loading (1800 FPS). A range cease fire interrupted my final shot so I fired the last round into the left of the two targets on the paper as the barrels had cooled. I can say I am very happy with a 2 � by 2 � group. I would like to claim skill, but having seen my other groups (next smallest is 5x8) I am not sure I will do that well again.





Overall Accuracy seems very good. The sight picture bugs me, I doubt I will change the rifle sights, I might increase load speed? No pressure signs on the cartridge cases, and comfortable recoil.

Long term my goal is to develop a light (plinking load) medium hunting and heavy load. Next step is to resolve my loose bullet issue, get the correct 258grain bullets, in meantime load more cartridges in 240grn, some in 220 grain (because I have a bunch of bullets and want to see what I they can do), use a spotting scope to track round by round performance, and chronograph my loads.

old colonel,
I think you should look to the expander button, for your problem with loose bullets.It sounds like it was made for full size 44 bullets. I suggest you remove the expander and try your bullets(deprime by hand,belling not as important with jacketed bullets, but if you try cast, bell some other way). Once you have cases sized to hold your 423 bullets, fire one;then if a 44 bullet easily slides in, it would be ok to use. I suggest you place two targets,side by side, load both barrels and fire the right barrel at the right target; then as soon as you can get on target,fire the left barrel at the left target. Let the barrels cool to ambient temp.between each set of two rounds.Then when you have fired all six rounds, place one target on top of the other and mark it's bullets impact holes. I find this is the best way to tell whether the barrels are crossing or shooting wide.Do your shooting like you described, but hold on with both hands and build up your rest so you sit up straight( and rock back in recoil). This is just my suggestion, after all, it's not my rifle.
Mike

Der Ami, I appreciate the input.

On shooting the right barrel on the right bull and left on the left bull makes great sense.

I have read two schools of thought on resting the gun between shots, one concurs with you that both barrels should be shot then an extended period for cooling. The other is just shoot it. While it makes some sense to me let the barrels cool down at the same time I like to think the guns are not so delicate that it makes a great difference.

I measured the fired brass internal case mouth dimensions and they ran from 0.428 to 0.431. I continue to wonder what the hell on bullet bore dimensions. This might lead me to think I need a bigger than 0.423/0.424. I went back and remeasured the muzzzle and the casting of the chamber, and barrel slug
Muzzle is still 0.429 the bore slug 0.427, and the chamber cast at the end of the forcing cone are 0.426. I am beginning to question my measuring tools and there ability to consistently read. That or my technique bites, and or all of the above. Part of my challenge is meauring the lands versus the grooves (Yes I realize this sounds stupid) I was measurung groove to groove versus rolling the casting and getting the land to land.

In checking what bullets will slide into the fired brass the 0.427 seem to just barely slide in the .430 stuff does not. I have discovered that even unresized bullets in the same box can vary 0.002+-.

I am nervous about increasing the bore dimensions of the bullets I am loading as it could effect pressure significantly.

I checked the dimensions on the expander and determine it is 0.435 so it may be oversized

old colonl,
You are right to be hesitant to use a bullet too large to fit into a fired case (especially a jacketed bullet). It sounds like your rifle has an odd number of grooves;if so it is difficult to measure a "slug",because grooves are not across from each other."Rolling" the slug between the jaws of a dial or digital calipers gives a pretty good approximation of the diameter,but can be a couple thousanths off.The most accurate way is with a special micrometer, having a "V" anvil, or a common micrometer and special "V"block (included angle depends on number of grooves). You can easially measure the bore diameter with a micrometer and an expandable ball guage though.
I wouldn't worry about using any bullet that will slip into the case (which seems to be .427" or less).To prevent your loose bullet problem,the expander should be .002-.003" less than that.You can reduce the diameter by grinding with a toolpost grinder;or if you go to a 44 spc/mag expander,you can reduce it enough by spinning it in a lathe/drill press/drill motor against abrasive cloth backed by a file.
I only go through the "drill" I described with the 2 targets, etc. when I'm trying to work up the best load.After this is done, I don't worry about cooling the barrels either. Always shoot it, holding with both hands, however. All this is just my opinion,I wouldn't say anybody else is wrong.I hope it helps.
Mike

I appreciate the advice and input. On shotguns I have complete confidence as they have been my focus always. On rifles most of what I know about ballistics relates to Field Artillery indirect fire and qualifying troops with service weapons. Flat shooting direct fire is as a hobby is relatively new to me as is rifle reloading. I have been a pure shotgun guy for years and although I live where there are some big deer (Kansas) compared to my childhood deer in Virginia, I have not shoot a dear since high school with my dad and that was a 16ga SxS #4 Buck. That will change

I am sending off a pair of bore slugs (from the muzzle and from the chamber side) to another more skilled and better equipped person to check.

It is a six groove barrel. I slugged the bore at the muzzle and from the chamber. It is tighter on the muzzle than from the chamber.

I am beginning to think part of my problem is my digital caliper is a cheap and inaccurate. I am getting 0.4265 at chamber slug and 0.4245 at the muzzle, but everytime I repeat the measurement it comes back slightly different. For a measurement to be valid, the instrument should be repeatable and consistent. Once I get feedback, I will confirm or deny I am driving myself nuts.

In the meantime I have done a second set of slugs and I am using the tighter of the two slugs I did as a reference for bullet diameter. I am not going by the reading so much as I will ensure the resized bullets I load are the same or less than the muzzle slug. I ran a test and that works out to be the 0.424 CH4D bullet resizing die, which is a little smaller, but the next step up I have is 0.427 which is a little too big. I am waiting for the 0.425 die still from CH4D. I should note my caliper is reading 0.4235 on the bullets coming through the 0.424 CH4D bullet resizing die.

I expect an answer in a week or so when my package gets to someone who has better calipers than I.

Reference shooting style; I think you are right on process. I feel particularly lucky at this point as my early targets show I am in the ball park. I did run the numbers on a bullet drop calculator and determined that increasing the velocity even as much as 300 FPS is not going to raise my group more than a half inch or so at 50 yards. I am not sure the inch in height is worth the recoil, and pressure increase. Then again until I have a solid laydown of the left and right barrel results I do not know if I need to increase or decrease speed to ensure a tight right left barrel grouping.

If I stopped now and did no further development it would work, but I want it as exactly correct as I can get it.

old colonel,
It sounds like you are having a lot of fun, and that is what this game is all about. Since your barrel is 6 groove, just forget everything I said about "V blocks", etc.Often, old barrels are not exactly round,and the measurement of the slug may vary from one side to the other.Digital calipers are great, but because they read to the tenthousnths(.0001),insignificant differences seem big, when they don't mean much.If you just read to the thousanth(.001), things will look better.It is great that your barrels are tighter at the muzzle, than at the chamber.When your rifle was made, the barrels were likely measured and the tightest end oreniented to the muzzle on purpose. Once again, it is not my rifle, but I would not size the bullets to be the "same or less than" the tightest slug.I would size them to fit easily in a fired case.A case not releasing the bullet(ie jammed into the lede) will drive the pressure up,otherwise a little oversized bullet won't.Once it is moving,and moves one bullet length into the barrel, it is "sized".It can't be larger than the barrel, and this seems to improve combustion of the powder.
I wouldn't worry about the caliper being inexpensive, you can "zero" it.In addition to the above discussion of significant digits, you can't expect to get as uniform readings from a soft lead slug as from a steel "standard".You can "squeeze" a lead slug with the caliper, and make it vary several tenthousanths.To make a long story short, I just don't think you are doing much, if anything wrong.
Mike

Mike is right. This is where you earn your Phd. in reloading. Plus there's a heck of a lot of fun in the process. I also agree with him that I don't believe you are doing anything wrong. It just takes time and persistence....that's the nature of old rifles in general and double rifles in particular.

I went back over your previous posts to see if you had an aversion to cast bullets. I did not see any mentioned. Is a gas checked hard cast bullet a possibility? They, cast, aren't quite so apt to increase pressure if a bit oversize as are jacketed. As you know your groove diameter, and shortly should know exactly, a mold can be had to fit the generally accepted .001 - .002 over groove diameter, provided it will chamber, and to the weight you wish, apparently 250-260 gr.. At the velocities you're talking cast isn't a problem. Just a thought.

It is not so much that I have any aversion of cast bullets, it is that the gun was rifled for jacketed bullets and so marked "B.BLINDEE" As the only references I can find for the cartridge always show it only with jacketed round bullets and the one set of partial reloading data I could locate is a jacketed bullet as well I thought I should start there.

I actually believe I will eventually play with cast bullets and paper patched in particular and have been gathering references for that day. Once I am sure of jacketed bullet dimensions I am able to determine the dimensions for cast bullets and will order a mold. I may even go for a high end custom mold as an additional case tool. I am planning a complete set of every reasonable case tool to complement the gun. It is a lovely gun and it rates a complete set.

I have no aversion to cast bullets. I admit I am in awe of some of those big bore deeply grooved rifles like the Alexander Henry's. Like every temptation I have to fight it off for awhile. I doubt I ever would have brought this Double Rifle had it not been for the engraver. He is the same man who did my two best SLE shotguns. It is amongst the luckiest decisions I have made in some time as it has opened a whole new area of exploration. I think we stay young by finding new hobbies or variations on our same. Once I have figured things out with this gun and I will expand into other areas to include Cast Bullets, but for now will resolve the issues with the correct sizing and cartridge bullet tension on jacketed bullets

old colonel,
Keep us up to date with how it's going.
Mike

I have TDY trip over the next week so it will be after the 27th until I get to the range again

Great! Thank you for the update.

One thing I might add is you might experiment with your course of fire. For double rifles I normally load both barrels and then shoot right and left quickly. Then reload both, continue etc. for either a 4 shot or 6 shot group all in quick succession (about 1-2 minutes). Rather than breaking open you gun to re-load between barrels I find this helps with keeping the sight picture with express sites. Also I think shooting both barrels in quick succession is more how these are designed in terms of regulation (but I could be wrong).

Then I let the barrels cool at least 15-30 minutes depending on the heat of the day. From all I've read (including a good number of 19th century writers and gun makers) that is pretty close to how they were expected to shoot. Actually with express rifles they often shot 10 shot groups or "squares" in quick succession in the 1880s.

I agree that I should should rapidly shoot right then left. However I am uncomfortable in loading both barrels until I have my bullet tension issue resolved. At this point I am concerned that the loose bullet the left barrel would be moved by the recoil in the right barrel. Once I have solved the bullet tension issue then I will go ahead and load both barrels and shoot groups of at least six.

Bottomline up front, my assumptions on bore size of .423/.424 were erroneous. I have been resizing to far down.

Based on some good input on NitroExpress.com I reslugged the bores from both breech and muzzle. I sent the slugs and fired cases to a more skilled and better equipped person who could measure them and provide a good check to me driving myself crazy with inconsistent measurements.

The slugs measured out indicated the bore is right about .428" tapering about .001" toward the muzzle. (so the 0.423 was too small)

The fired cases are .434-.435" inside the neck, so the chamber has good neck clearance to release the bullets.

I test loaded two cartridges before I left the house this morning with bullets resized to 0.427 and they both came off correct without loose bullet tension. I did note that advice on the expanding button might be oversized and that maybe true

I intend to shoot it with the jacketed 0.427 bullets to see how they do before I move up to anything larger diameter. I am not going up to 0.428 not because I lack faith in the measurements but because I want to take it step by step.

I need to cancel my order for 0.423 258 bullets from Hawks as they will not be of much use.

Once I have nailed down the best regulating load with the Hornaday XTP 240 grain, I may go ahead and see how it does with the Hornaday FTX 265 Grain at 1800 FPS

It will be two weeks before I will be able to get to a range again to fire my next lot of reloads

old colonel,
If it's too late to stop the .423 bullets, that is the correct size for 404 Jeffery (and some 10.75mms), just buy one and shoot them in it. Having bullets is as good an excuse to buy(or build)a new rifle as any.In the end, I'm sure you can use full size 44 bullets in your double. Good luck.
Mike

If it turns out too late I will put them on the shelf for a bit to see what happens. It is unlikely I will buy another Double Rifle anytime soon.

My short term and mid term projects involve developing accurate regulated loads for the Double Rifle, procure all correct case tools and Huey Case for it. For the DR's two shotgun cousins, 16 & 12 ga SLEs (all three are made by Jules Bury and a engraved by Schoffeniels) all the case tools, Huey Case, and properly engraved RMC cases.

Long term I want to find a way to put a new set of 20 gauge and an additional set of 16 gauge barrels on my 16 SLE and an additional 410 set of barrels on my DR, but that is long time and many many dollars away if ever. (Besides I may get lucky enough near matching engraved gun by Schoffeniels in 20 gauge one day - I am sure there is likely one out there somewhere - and it is the only thing that could tempt me right now to break my no additional gun vow).

Most importantly more than all the toys to go with the guns my chief goal is to spend time and energy hunting the guns I have. I believe it is more important to simply hunt well than have pretty toys.

this thread is moving away from its base subject of shoot a 10.75x52r Springer DR. I will start another when I get my next round of shooting done