doublegunshop.com - home Forums THE MARTIN/ZIMMERMAN TRAGEDY

Ed, it seems that you are saying that you are not in favor of concealed carry and the right of self defense. We could also say that none of this would have happened if Martin was not prowling around a gated community at night in an area where there had been numerous break-ins and burglaries. He could have bought his Skittles and went straight home. The Liberal media never missed an opportunity to point out that Zimmerman, a community watch volunteer, was a wannabe cop and had taken criminal justice classes. They seemed to be saying that anyone who might aspire to a career in law enforcement should not excercise their right to carry a concealed weapon. This of course would include anyone who eventually became a cop.

Many liberals are also crowing about the extent of Zimmermans injuries, the ones that we were only shown after they were cleaned up as Mike points out. They say this is proof that he was never in danger of being severely injured or killed. Anyone who has ever been in a street fight knows that the next punch could result in a crushed windpipe or a fatal subdural hematoma. A high school friend who was big and strong had his life changed forever during a fight outside a bar, when the girlfriend of the guy he was whipping, kicked him squarely in the eye with her Cowboy boots, and popped it like a water balloon. This former heavyweight wrestler was beaten by a 100 lb. girl, and maimed for life.

I would not be surprised to see the Obama Justice Dept. pursue Civil Rights charges even though there is zero evidence Zimmerman profiled Martin on the basis of race. They would love to send the message that using a gun, even on someone who is beating, raping, or robbing, is just not worth it. Zimmerman could sue to recover legal fees, but the Gov't has deep pockets and our money to spend. Remember that the same Obama administration had no problem attempting to restrict the Civil Rights of law abiding gun owners after Newtown. Civil Rights laws aren't meant for white folks. You never even see them contemplating Civil Rights charges when a black attacks a white person even though it happens virtually every day. Our resident Libtards see nothing wrong with that.

It is instructive right now to tune in to MSNBC to see just how the Liberal Democrats view gun owners and the NRA.

Trayvon deserved to die..he had a number of arrests for criminal activity..so it was all a matter of when...not IF.

If a punk like that was playing those games where I live he'd have been shot too.

Perhaps the Justice Department could finance some additional protest in order to ensure the public support for their actions (I am joking). Governmentally inspired mob action reeks of the anti civil rights movement by local governments in the South in the 1950' & 60's. I had grown up with the impression that mob action was inherently wrong. I guess on the east coast liberal establishment some mobs are more equal than others. Government manipulation of protests creates real questions.

Only Zimmerman knows what happened that night. If he was faced with the decision to shoot or be killed, that is one thing, and was entitled to self defense. However, he could've avoided the situation by listening to the 911 operator who told him to stop following and leave it to the police. I don't think he should be made into a guns' rights poster boy nor should Martin be made a martyr of jury racism. He was acquited because the State couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense. The lesson we should take from this is to never let a gun influence one's decision to do something we wouldn't do if we didn't have a gun. I think the gun gave him a sense of bravery to continue following Martin despite being told not to. I don't know how many of you have read Massad Ayoob's works, but he stresses that a gun should never influence someone to go where they wouldn't go without a gun or choose a course of conduct because of having a gun unless it is self defense against an imminent threat. I bet Zimmerman wishes he had obeyed the 911 operator. The case should stand for our system's reasonable doubt standard, the privilege against self incrimination, and the burden of proof in a criminal case. Zimmerman didn't take the stand because of our Constitution's Bill of Rights, the 5th Amendment. Not only did he have the right not to testify, the State is prohibited from arguing that he didn't and the jury is cautioned and admonished not to draw a negative infrerence because he didn't testify. The burden in this case was entirely on the State and it never shifted to Zimmerman to prove anything. Self defense became an issue because of his recorded statements introduced by the State into evidence. Had he not made any statement, he wouldn't have been able to invoke self defense without taking the stand. In my state as is in Florida, reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof in a court of law. To take your money in a damages suit, the standard is the greater weight of evidence; just enough to tilt Lady Justice's scales. In an action by the State of Georgia to take someone's children from a parent, the standard is clear and convincing evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal case is a higher standard than used to take someone's children from them and award them to the State. I hope the "race" angle of this case disapppears as it should and I hope that Zimmerman isn't raised on the shoulders of guns' rights activists because neither should have played into the jury's decision nor become standard bearers for anything other than our system of justice works as it should.

As for a "civil rights" violation charge, Federal law permits certain actions against state officials for excessive use of force if they acted under color of law. Zimmerman is a private citizen and is not subject to the Civil Rights Act for his conduct in shooting Martin. It is mercifully over as far as criminal prosecution goes. As for a "stand your ground" hearing which would have arguably found him immune, the judge could have easily ruled that when he followed Martin after being told not to, he wasn't "standing his ground". The decision was a smart one because it left room for his lawyer to argue "stand your ground" and good old "self defense" using deadly force because of his fear of imminent grievous bodily injury or death.

GLS.....something too many people assume..is that a 911 operator has any authority to tell anyone what they HAVE to do...

They are private citizens manning a phone in effect. They do not work for the police and have zero authority to dictate anyone else's actions.

I know this because my cousin works as a 911 operator in Virginia....she couldn't get a job with the police if she tried...

If I followed someone snooping in my or my neighbors back yard.....I'd tell them to get stuffed....their stuff and physical well being isn't being threatened by a criminal.

Thanks for that, GLS.

Everyone is talking about Zimmermann's decision to get out of the car as the reason for the shooting.Consider this: if Trayvon hadn't decided to carry a baggie of weed to school, he wouldn't have been suspended and wouldn't have been at is Dad's in the first place. This is just as valid as all the "what ifs" abuot Zimmermann. As far as Trayvon being a child, the State of Flordia, charges 17 year olds as adults all the time, for violent crimes( is slamming someones head into concrete violent?).
Mike

Um....exactly WHAT authority does some person answer a phone at a call center have to dictate what someone else can and can't do in his own neighborhood on public property? The answer is none... Zimmerman had the legal right to be walking anywhere he wanted..its his neighborhood.

And something forgotten...Trayvon wasn't walking on the sidewalk that cause the suspicion...he was walking in the grass very close to the houses. Trayvon wasn't a resident of that gated community...how about why didn't HE beat feet out of there since it was he that didn't lave a legal reason to be there that night.

Another reason that the defense didn't conduct a "stand your ground" pre-trial hearing probably was that Zimmerman would have had to take the stand. He couldn't have been compelled to testify, but I doubt if any judge would have held him immune without hearing from him. One of the big decisions made in criminal defense is whether or not a client will take the stand. The decision to testify can only be made by the Defendant and the lawyer can't prevent it. However, a lawyer sizes up his client's ability to talk and answer questions and can advise the client that it is not in his best interests to testify. In a case like this, I suspect that Zimmerman was cross examined more than once by other skilled lawyers outside of his trial team and that it was videotaped for replay to Zimmerman so that he could see how he looked on video. From what I've seen and read about Zimmerman he couldn't talk his way out of a burning building and it was a good decision for him not to testify. Had he testified at a "stand your ground" hearing, the State would have been able to conduct a thorough and sifting cross examination with him under oath that often can make someone not skilled in communication look very bad even when telling the truth. His lawyers handled pre-trial and trial proceedings skillfuly and he was well repesented.

There was never enough evidence for the Prosecutor to even file charges of Second Degree Murder in the first place. The case was built on conjecture and fueled by Liberals who wanted to crucify Zimmerman at any cost. The prosecution realized that and that's why they pursued manslaughter as a fallback position. Had this case been brought before a Grand Jury, it's unlikely that Zimmerman would have even been charged and brought to trial.

I'm not saying Zimmerman is totally innocent or without fault. I wasn't there to witness what happened. But it is absolutely true that the Liberals and race-baiters moved heaven and earth to try to paint Zimmerman as a murderer, and did all they could to paint Martin as an innocent child eating a bag of Skittles. They used this case to put a taint on concealed carry laws everywhere. The Liberal press heavily edited Zimmermans 911 call to try to show racial profiling where there is none, and they totally ignored Trayvon's criminal past. I'm sure King Brown is OK with that!