doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identify double shotgun!!

Just a thought (certainly an ignorant one and possibly a dumb one): could that long "serial" or "control" number possibly be TWO different numbers, one prewar and one postwar? I know that civilian small arms in Japan have been rather rigidly controlled since the country was unified, and the system was changed by the American occupation administration. Could the numbers after the "C" be the "new system" serial/registration number?

One of the hallmarks of these guns is relatively plain wood for a similar grade of English gun. I believe John makes reference to this in his posts. The wood figure is definitely a couple of levels below the engraving and metal fitting in these guns. I'm not sure if it was difficult to get nice wood in Japan or if they just didn't consider it important.

Yours is some of the best wood I have seen on these guns.

Attached are a few better pictures of engraving.

Considering what you just describe, what are your thoughts? I am curious to know if there is one particular manufacturer in Japan that was likely to produce a gun of this grade prior to WWII...and approximately what year considering that it has 23/4" chambers with relatively tight forcing cones (which were designed for shot shells with fiber wads...; The condition is quite good with still crisp checkering, strong blueing (definitely not restored in any way) all original finish. The barrels are dense with more than appropriate thickness but yet relatively light. It balances just about the hinge pin with slight weight forward (I love that as it provides better swing) but have have primarily used light 21/2" fiber wad loads -Gamebore, RST and H&H...
Thanks for posting additional pictures of your guns - there are some similarities with the engraving to the shotgun at the bottom, which one is that?

I know I have seen the mark that looks like T printed over M somewhere, but I can't place it

BTW some gunmaking schools which choose the strongest, not the most figured, wood for their top guns. The Russian school is one example, there's a thread a bit below speaking of that; Russian guns, incidentally, had the long (70mm) chamber as standard since 1900s, the rationale being that one can shoot short shells from long chambers but not vice versa. The gun discussed, of course, is nowhere near from Russia, I just give this as an example of variations of attitudes to guns and gunmaking across cultures.

"I know I have seen the mark that looks like T printed over M somewhere, but I can't place it"

Think hard please
Did it also have the crown and cross over it?
When I obtained this gun at an estate auction I purchased it as a "German Guild Gun" it was advertised that way - based on the assumption that the crown was a an old Suhl proof mark - Also the stamp with the word "stil" in various places means "style" in German...When I looked at the other marks such as "choke" they certainly appeared English such as the 12C inside the diamond which is an old English mark indicating gauge....; I knew all of these things appeared to be contradictions - but the look and feel of this gun is typical of a pre world war II high grade English boxlock game gun - I examined it closely and the quality is excellent in every respect - and the wood is beautiful - so the origin was not a concern at the time - I fell in love with it and the price was right - I can tell you the handling, balance and feel of this gun is superb!!

Agreed, Larry...
This also seems to me to be a European proof mark, but from none of the usual suspects.
The monogram below the crown could be a MT, but I sure don't know where would that come from or mean.
Does "Stil" means "steel" in any European language?
WC-

It looks real Japanese copy to me. The proofmarks are only "similar" to British or European proofmarks. None match real proofmarks. The engravers have not commented, but the engraving is "showy" , but not refined. It looks like a Japanese copy of a Webley and Scott, as many of the Japanese guns are copies. I do like it, but that is what I see.

Daryl, I do agree that when you take everything into consideration about this gun it points to Japanese origin. To me this has certainly been an education in a totally new area - but that is the great thing about gun collecting. I am not an expert about the engraving - it would be nice if somebody versed in this area could offer some comments on it.
Thanks

A scroll is the MOST difficult form the execute, engraving wise. VERY few can actually doit well. The larger diameter, the more difficult. We have members here who are expert engravers and perhaps one or more might comment on my remark(s). I can't even draw one and that was the exact position taken by the best teahcers/mentors w/their students. Learn to draw it first, then you can be alowed to try it on metal.

Your gun is a very nice specimen, don't let my remarks detract from that. In the same breath, look closely at the scrolls & you can see what I'm addressing. I'd hope you get much enjoyment from your gun, I would.

Kind regards, tw

I'd guess it was sourced in the white from W&C in Birmingham(safe on top tang) and would assume the other odd crown marks/non Birmingham to be in reference to St. Stephens. With that I'd look toward Romania 1st and possibly Yugoslavia. Some of the other gunmaking centres tilted the cross to one side while this one is erect.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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