doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Forging lines on old actions?

Gents,

Thanks for all of the input! This is exactly why this BB is such a superb venue for the exchange of information. It would have taken me years to get to the bottom of this otherwise.

Here is a macro of the action which shows more detail. Click on the picture and enlarge it for more detail. I took a few images and this was the one which shows the lines the best. If you look closely, the lines do not appear to be scratches as scratches would drag some metal into the engraving in the direction of the scratch (or so I think).
I think the lines show some personality on the old girl and I'm glad to know that these are natural and not some external damage to the gun.

Great picture, I can see the crossing lines are very different from what I thought. I'd also suspect the lines were there before the engraving was done. Just my opinion, but your link of the Holland & Holland seems to be a different effect from your new picture.

I think the link is an excellent example of what others are describing. Possibly, wrought iron slag inclusions appearing as lengthwise irregular grain with signs showing through the whole piece.

I think it's possible to put a fine finish on wrought iron. If those slag lines are there, I wonder if they might be revealed by a mild acid etch such as years sweat from normal handling. I wonder if that H & H had most of its lines show about where it balances or where it cradles when it's broken open. Just wondering, thanks for the topic.

If they were forging lines don't you think a reputable maker such as a Holland & Holland would polish them out ?

What I see are scratches. I've saw the same type on a few old muzzle loaders only difference they were in the wood just forward of the trigger loop.

Possibly made from pushing or holding down wire fencing when crossing.

I have seen old guns with something like wood grain that I don't doubt are a result of the forging process.

Like jOe I think those marks in the picture are scratches.

Best,

Mike

Joe, it would have been polished when new . That's the point it's old and time and environment have taken its toll . Take for example an old Damascus barrel that has never been touched and not particularly well card for and you will see that the surface has been "etched" away on the softer irons . I am not a metallurgist but I have seen many guns with similar marks and I do know if you pickle an old action to remove rust you often see a whole raft of similar lines that need to be struck out prior to re engraving or re hardening . I do not believe these are scratches.

Boy, this is a tough one.
Could striations occur during forging? Absolutely. Could these parallel lines have been created by the drawing of the bar, pre forging? Absolutely. They aren't exclusive to each other.

But why show up years after initial finishing?
Differential corrosion.

That would suggest that a mild acid would reveal their continuity.
Discontinuous? Probably scratches.

Those crossing lines above and below the "Patent Hammerless Ejector" look to me to be intentionally engraved ledger lines or whatever they're called. Both are perfect and have a dot in the middle.

The longitudinal lines are what I believe the subject of this thread is about. After Hugh provided the explanation of the hand forging process of folding over bar stock, I can see where there may be what amounts to a linear inclusion of scale from folding over the bar multiple times.

The forging on guns of this period would almost certainly have been drop forged not blacksmith forged . Companies like Victoria Forgings in the "Black Country " did work for many Birmingham makers and indeed produced " standard" forgings or stampings of many parts . Webley had there barrel blanks forged out of billets as they did their actions and forend irons . Occasionally a forging fault would show up on machining in the form of black lines.

Thank you for revisiting the topic gunman. Would you happen to have any thought as to why the appearance of the longitudinal lines are so different from the link on the first post and closeup of this subject gun that Blue Grouse added.

That link H&H really looks like how stringy grain wrought iron might look. The lines in the picture above look a lot like the crossing line engraving that Chuck pointed out.

I ran my fingernail across the picture on the computer screen and did not feel any scratches. I'd like to run my fingernail across these longitudinal marks on the gun itself to see if they have depth. I think if this was due to corrosion, even from sweat, it would have affected the engraving too.

I have seen a lot of guns that have actual scratches in this area which comes from holding down fence wires while crossing, as jOe says. I see the same damage on the forearm wood on some guns. It seems to be a regional thing. In my neck of the woods, most guys held down the top strand of barbed wire with the buttplate, and we see damage to that part. If the wire on an electric fence slips while you are crossing, the result can be shocking indeed. I saw a buddy do just that while crossing an electric fence with his father-in-laws .222 Rem. while we were groundhog hunting. When the wire sprang back up to his crotch, he reflexively flung the gun about 15 yards back into the pasture. That was 30 years ago, but I still chuckle when I think about it. I think that's why they recommend opening the action while crossing a fence.