doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Double rifle cartridge question?

Why are modern rimless cartridges like the 458WM or 416Rem described often as being "problematic" in double rifle stopping guns? Ejection or Extraction problems? Thanks...

They answered this for already at AH forum very nicely.
Pressure, extraction.

The 458 Weatherby Magnum and the .416 Remington we the answers to questions that no Big Game hunter ever asked. The British line of Big Game Rifle Cartridges were all designed to be suitable for double rifles and the afore mentioned cartridges just added unnecessary additional rounds to the big bore selection. There's not an animal that has ever lived on this planet that couldn't be taken down by British Nitro Express rounds. The .458 WM and the ,416 Rem. were surplus to requirements before they were even made. JMHO.

Harry

With all due respect I am going to differ with you. Double rifles, as we all know are expensive, and really only of use for hunting dangerous game at short ranges in places like Africa. The American hunter who purchased a bolt action Weatherby or Winchester did so for multiple reasons in addition to cost. Most American hunters are very familiar with bolt action rifles as they are the predominate big game hunting rifles here. The 458 Winchester and 460 Weatherby are rimless and far more suitable to bolt action rifles than the rimmed nitro express rounds. These rifle are also suitable for dangerous game such as Grizzly Bear so would be useful to the hunter here as well as in Africa.
When someone can buy something comparable to another item and it costs less, is more versatile and the user if very operationally familiar with it it's usually an easy decision to make.
I just checked and the Model 70 Winchester in 458 Magnum is still available brand new for under $2,000.. What would a British double say in 470 Nitro Express from one of the few remaining makers sell for at this time?

Here's a used John Rigby that's currently for sale that should meet your criteria:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/JOHN-RIGBY-CO-Sidelock-Double-Rifle.cfm?gun_id=100340486
Jim

italiansxs,
Not to pick nits, but neither 458 Win nor 460 Weatherby are rimless.Rather they are belted.
Mike

Mike:
The 458 Winchester Mag is essentially a rimless case with the rim and belt diameter being one and the same at .532.

The 458 is based on the 375 Holland & Holland magnum. Here's the writeup on that cartridge:

"The .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is a medium-bore rifle cartridge. The .375 H&H was only the second cartridge ever to feature a belt, now common among magnum rounds.[1] The belt is for headspace, due to the narrow shoulder.[2] The belt replaced the rim in function on these new rimless cartridges."

Also keep in mind that back when the 458 Winchester Magnum was introduced African hunting laws required a rifle cartridge of .40 or larger for hunting dangerous game. So this I believe is the primary reason Winchester developed the 458 for a bolt action Model 70.

Jim

italiansxs,
I indicated I knew it was sort of "nit picking",so I won't go to the trouble of posting any of the many diagrams of different case types showing rimmed, rimless,belted,and rebated(which is also "rimless")as different case types.
Mike

Mike:
I'm well aware of all the different case types. My point was Winchester would have had a hell of time designing a bolt action rifle for example the 470 Nitro Express that would feed reliably primarily due to the rimmed design. And they along with Remington and Weatherby perceived a market for a .400 caliber bolt action rifle for dangerous game hunting.

My real intended response here is to the poster on this thread who stated this:

"The .458 WM and the ,416 Rem. were surplus to requirements before they were even made. JMHO."

Jim

all it takes to feed a rimmed cartridge in a bolt gun is a single stack slant box magazine and the will to make it feed. Rigby did it on the very first magnum mausers with the 400/350. I'm betting if Winchester wanted the model 70 to feed a .470, they could have happily done it.

Well:
For what ever reason the chose not to do so. I have been told in the past that they believed it would be difficult to get a magazine fed bolt action to feed this type of cartridge reliably.

Well:
For what ever reason Winchester chose not to do so. I have been told in the past that they believed it would be difficult to get a magazine fed bolt action to feed this type of cartridge reliably. If this is in error so be it.
And considering the intended use of this rifle reliability was of primary importance.
However Winchester had no issues with chambering their Model 70 for the 375 Holland & Holland which is of course the parent case for the 458 Magnum.
I stand by my initial response that the 458 Magnum in the Winchester Model 70 filled a need perceived by Winchester for that American hunter making an occasional safari while retaining utility for other purposes and that was my whole intent in responding to this thread to begin with.
Jim

That's true, but the original inquiry was about extraction/ejection problems with belted/rimless cartridges in a double rifle.
Mike

Thanks, Mike. I had wondered if folks had forgotten....
BTW: Kreigoff (sp) offeres thier doubles in 375 H&H. Why not some other rounds? Case body taper? Just sayin'...

I agree and that question was answered in the 2nd post in the thread. The thread would probably have ended there if that other guy didn't start making some IMO unfounded statements inre. to the 458 Winchester Magnum. In case you haven't noticed ;He has conveniently exited from the thread. If you want to probe someone's intent why don't you contact him. I'm out of here.
Jim

I contacted Searcy today and he will only chamber rimmed rounds. I still wonder how some makers will chamber in 375 H&H, but not other rimless rounds. Maybe the the case taper in the 375? What say you...

Reliable extraction is the main reason you want rimmed on a DG rifle. It's only going to take 1 mess up with those tiny pawls slipping past the rim, then you're dead.
I have a 300 H&H DR that has ripped thru the rim and were stuck in the chamber. I'm a believer in a healthy rim for a DGF rifle.

Good answer, Mike. That is the type of help I was looking for. Not an editorial...

Because of the basic design of 'most' double rifles they can't handle the pressures of modern necked rounds.
The old ways are the best ways for the most part. There's no need to re-invent the wheel if it still works good.
There is a German rifle, Kreighoff IIRC that will build a 500/416 if you need a 416. I don't care for their silly 'decocker button' but that's just me.
But a 450,470 0r 500 will handle anything you want. If not there's always the 577 or 600 or 700.
Bailey Bradshaw will put a rimless round in his falling block DR. It'll cost a bunch more for it though.

Italiansxs,

I haven't exited this thread, I've just been sitting back reading the replies. I didn't say that a double rifle had to be used by the shooter, I know only too well how expensive they are. All the British NE rounds can be also used in a bolt action rifle as well. Certainly rifles with bolt actions large enough to take the longest cases in NE calibres aren't either common or cheap but they are cheaper than British made doubles even if you have to have them custom built in the USA.

I stand by my original statement that there was no real need for either of the US cartridges. Unless of course it was to promote the gun makers ammo sales.

Harry

Harry:
And it least for the most part its is still a free Country here. I expect there are thousands of owners of the 458 Winchester Magnum that would totally disagree with your assertion.
Current ammunition "shortages" aside; anyone can walk into any well stocked sporting goods store here and walk out with 458 Winchester ammo and at a reasonable price.
Try that with the 470 Nitro Express or one of the more exotic big bore British cartridges. I expect you understand the price differential and availability issues.
Are you now maintaining that the British makers didn't develop their own cartridges to promote the gun makers ammo sales?
Jim

With Hornady in the Nitro game now ammo is quite reasonable even compared to the 458.
If you want to bother with the factory fodder that is.

BTW, Hi Harry!

Jim,
The British Gun Makers had, of necessity, to design and manufacture their own ammo for Big Game as there was nothing else available anywhere. The largest the Americans had was the 50-90, which whilst it may kill a Bison was not a calibre anyone with any sense would use against Rhino or elephant or any of the dangerous African and Indian big game. The breech loading 2,4 or even 8 Bores had wicked recoil when fully loaded and that's why gunmakers went for rounds that were more manageable but would still knock down and kill a dangerous animal. With the advent of Nitro powders i.e. Cordite, enabled many of the old BP rounds to be upgraded and to use heavy jacketed bullets. The reason that British ammo for these large calibres is expensive is that the demand is no longer there to permit volume sales, Big Game hunting as far as we Brits were concerned had it's death knell in the 1930's it got too expensive. It also became and more and more and expensive A Safari today can set you back many tens of thousands of Dollars to the hire of a professional hunter and his staff, then there's travel costs in country, game licences which alone can run to several thousands of Dollars, have pushed this sport to beyond the reach of even a fairly wealthy man.
Most Big Game hunting today is done with a camera. That's affordable.

Several thousands of Americans may have bought 458's, but I'd bet less than a quarter of one percent of them have taken theirs to another country where is suitable for hunting. I'd also bet most never got anywhere other than a rifle range. Any American would be vastly over gunned, if they are using it in the USA for hunting.

Harry.

Harry,
A great many 458s are loaded to 45-70 speeds, with cast bullets,and used quite happily.I use my 404 for deer hunting this way.
Mike

Harry:
I have no quarrel whatsoever with the design and intended use of the British black powder and nitro big bore cartridges. Actually I'm a fan although my personal experience has been limited to some range work primarily with the 470 Nitro Express. My gun club has a very active group who regularly shoot these big bores.
My reservation was with your remarks concerning the 458 Winchester.
I think if you were to do some research you'd find that the 458 Winchester was used by American hunters in Africa to a greater extent than what you believe. I do know several people who have been on Safari over the years and toted a Model 70 in 458. The 458 and it's smaller brother the 338 Winchester Magnum are still very popular cartridges here. I live in Elk Country and many hunters use the 338 although I personally believe it's overkill.
The only large dealer I could find at present that stocks British big bores(Cabela's) limits their inventory to the 470 Nitro express and they are currently out of stock. The cost per round is about $17 compared to the cost per round of about $5.50 for the 458 magnum.
With dangerous game hunting limited to Cape Buffalo from what I can understand* I don't see much of a resurgence in demand for any of the big bores in the future.
*Lion and elephant may still be available but it wouldn't be possible to import any trophies to the United States.
Any way that's my take.
Jim

Italian, are you certain lion and elephant can't be brought into the US? Reason I ask is because I know a couple guys who took elephant in the last 2 years and I'm almost certain they wouldn't have done so if they couldn't bring home their trophy. Yes, no?

Lion I have no idea about. Last fella I knew who took a lion was a doctor who was also a customer, since deceased, and that was 20 or more years ago.

Mike, I have to ask why do they buy a 458 then? It's rather like a little old lady buying a super fast Italian sports car and only using it to go to the corner shop. It's a little OTT. In over fifty years of shooting rifles and handguns (at least until the latter were banned here) I've never shot anything but full house loads. I just don't see the point in using reduced loads.

Harry

Jim,

I'm well aware of the costs of large calibre big game rounds of ammo but in relation to the overall cost of a Safari it's peanuts, and you don't really need a lot of ammunition when on Safari. I remember an article in one of the US Gun Magazines way back in the 1960's on going on Safari, by Elmer Keith. He stated take no more than 50 rounds and use at least 30 to sight your rifle in when you get there, as temperatures, air density and altitude all make a difference from back home. He also added it's unlikely you will need all the remaining rounds. Old Elmer could be a bit of a 'Blow Hard' at times, but he had hunted in Africa on several occasions and had a good practical knowledge of what goes down over there.

A Pro Hunter in Africa will be almost certain to have a stock of ammo to fit your rifle and it's likely to be cheaper than in the USA. Also you don't have it making extra weight in your luggage when you check in at your airport.

I last hunted in Africa in 1977, not the full Safari, but I had permission to shoot thin skinned game over a very large estate. The owner of the Estate said he had seen the 458 used against Cape Buffalo. Now maybe this particular animal was tougher than most, but it took 13 rounds, and it eventually bled to death. Now I'm sure it has been done with less ammo but if two Pro Hunters and their client couldn't kill it with less rounds expended, I wouldn't be taking a 458 with me if I ever went back.
However your MMV.

Harry

Harry,
They buy them because they want them, they are fun, and the hunters always have the hope of being able to hunt Africa.I understand that some people live where they can't own whatever they want and handloading is very difficult.If I had the money, I would have one of every caliber and several of some, including British,metrics, and American calibers.BTW, the 458 became popular during the time it was for practical purposes the "only game in town".The Brits and Continentals were too busy rebuilding their lives,so the Americans dominated the hunting.Things are better now, but since the 458 was well established, it just hung on. I'm glad I live where I do, and wish all my friends could.
Mike

Harry & Mike:
I don't think there's any real disagreement here and I too have heard some horror stories about the tenacity of Cape Buffalo.
I agree that only a minimal supply of ammunition is required on a big game hunt and that can be taken as a general recommendation.
When I was deer hunting in Illinois on a regular basis I used to buy a fresh 5 pack of 12 gauge slugs every year. I would take a couple of sight in shots to make sure everything was ok. Of the numerous bucks I took over the years none required a 2nd shot and none went more that a few feet after being hit. I was sorting thru ammo awhile back and found several 5 packs with two slugs still remaining.
It is my hope that I will still get the opportunity to go on at least one safari. I've been invited to South Africa by a professional hunter I've done video work for in the past but to date I haven't made it.
Jim

I'll be happy to fill that slot if you decide not to go! Just keep filming to help pay for my trophy fees!

Jim & Mike,
I think we can end our discussion amicably here. I don't deliberately pick arguments, but being a crusty old curmudgeon I'm a bit set in my ways and opinions. Jim, I hope you get to Africa eventually, if I can offer one word of advice, go to a country where there isn't a war going on, that way you don't have to sleep with one eye open all the time like I had to.
It's not as easy as Hollywood suggests in films about Waggon Train Scouts and Mountain Men. Lol.

Mike(Der Ami),
I suppose everyone has a dream and if a 458 was within their financial means there's no reason to stop them buying one, they've earned their Dollars, so what they spend it on is up to them.

AKMike1, Hello Mike, have you got rid of your snow yet?

Harry

Mr. Eales,

Thank you for your participation in this discussion. As always, you've added to the level of knowledge we have of the subject being discussed. A few pertinent facts have been overlooked by all, though.

When the Winchester line of short magnums was introduced, the most common rifle converted to them was the model 98 Mauser so the newly developed rounds were made to fit the magazines of Mausers. The .458 was the largest caliber produced. Doubles were not a practical consideration so many .458's were made.

The round, in the Winchester model 70 took Africa by storm. None other than Harry Selby used a .458 to replace his famous .416 Rigby and has never gone back. Jim Carmichal has written it is the most common round seen in African dangerous game rifles. African safaries were within the reach of many Americans back then so the .458 had a practical purpose for existing. It's eventualy being chambered in doubles was an attempt to provide a usable double for which ammunition available.

The reason so many Americans who will never hunt Africa have them is they are fun. Blowing up stumps is always fun. Many Americans have rifles chambered to rounds totaly impractical for American use but are fun to play with. When I lived in Alaska, I spent about ninty days a year in the woods with a .375 H&H. I left Alaska 3July93 and I still have that .375. Georgia white tails only rarely bite hunters and are handled nicely by anything bigger than a .22. I don't need a .375 but I love that rifle and use it once a year just for the memories it brings.

I hope this tome has helped you understand a little better why so many of us have .458's. Thanks again for your particpation