doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Double rifle cartridge question?

With Hornady in the Nitro game now ammo is quite reasonable even compared to the 458.
If you want to bother with the factory fodder that is.

BTW, Hi Harry!

Jim,
The British Gun Makers had, of necessity, to design and manufacture their own ammo for Big Game as there was nothing else available anywhere. The largest the Americans had was the 50-90, which whilst it may kill a Bison was not a calibre anyone with any sense would use against Rhino or elephant or any of the dangerous African and Indian big game. The breech loading 2,4 or even 8 Bores had wicked recoil when fully loaded and that's why gunmakers went for rounds that were more manageable but would still knock down and kill a dangerous animal. With the advent of Nitro powders i.e. Cordite, enabled many of the old BP rounds to be upgraded and to use heavy jacketed bullets. The reason that British ammo for these large calibres is expensive is that the demand is no longer there to permit volume sales, Big Game hunting as far as we Brits were concerned had it's death knell in the 1930's it got too expensive. It also became and more and more and expensive A Safari today can set you back many tens of thousands of Dollars to the hire of a professional hunter and his staff, then there's travel costs in country, game licences which alone can run to several thousands of Dollars, have pushed this sport to beyond the reach of even a fairly wealthy man.
Most Big Game hunting today is done with a camera. That's affordable.

Several thousands of Americans may have bought 458's, but I'd bet less than a quarter of one percent of them have taken theirs to another country where is suitable for hunting. I'd also bet most never got anywhere other than a rifle range. Any American would be vastly over gunned, if they are using it in the USA for hunting.

Harry.

Harry,
A great many 458s are loaded to 45-70 speeds, with cast bullets,and used quite happily.I use my 404 for deer hunting this way.
Mike

Harry:
I have no quarrel whatsoever with the design and intended use of the British black powder and nitro big bore cartridges. Actually I'm a fan although my personal experience has been limited to some range work primarily with the 470 Nitro Express. My gun club has a very active group who regularly shoot these big bores.
My reservation was with your remarks concerning the 458 Winchester.
I think if you were to do some research you'd find that the 458 Winchester was used by American hunters in Africa to a greater extent than what you believe. I do know several people who have been on Safari over the years and toted a Model 70 in 458. The 458 and it's smaller brother the 338 Winchester Magnum are still very popular cartridges here. I live in Elk Country and many hunters use the 338 although I personally believe it's overkill.
The only large dealer I could find at present that stocks British big bores(Cabela's) limits their inventory to the 470 Nitro express and they are currently out of stock. The cost per round is about $17 compared to the cost per round of about $5.50 for the 458 magnum.
With dangerous game hunting limited to Cape Buffalo from what I can understand* I don't see much of a resurgence in demand for any of the big bores in the future.
*Lion and elephant may still be available but it wouldn't be possible to import any trophies to the United States.
Any way that's my take.
Jim

Italian, are you certain lion and elephant can't be brought into the US? Reason I ask is because I know a couple guys who took elephant in the last 2 years and I'm almost certain they wouldn't have done so if they couldn't bring home their trophy. Yes, no?

Lion I have no idea about. Last fella I knew who took a lion was a doctor who was also a customer, since deceased, and that was 20 or more years ago.

Mike, I have to ask why do they buy a 458 then? It's rather like a little old lady buying a super fast Italian sports car and only using it to go to the corner shop. It's a little OTT. In over fifty years of shooting rifles and handguns (at least until the latter were banned here) I've never shot anything but full house loads. I just don't see the point in using reduced loads.

Harry

Jim,

I'm well aware of the costs of large calibre big game rounds of ammo but in relation to the overall cost of a Safari it's peanuts, and you don't really need a lot of ammunition when on Safari. I remember an article in one of the US Gun Magazines way back in the 1960's on going on Safari, by Elmer Keith. He stated take no more than 50 rounds and use at least 30 to sight your rifle in when you get there, as temperatures, air density and altitude all make a difference from back home. He also added it's unlikely you will need all the remaining rounds. Old Elmer could be a bit of a 'Blow Hard' at times, but he had hunted in Africa on several occasions and had a good practical knowledge of what goes down over there.

A Pro Hunter in Africa will be almost certain to have a stock of ammo to fit your rifle and it's likely to be cheaper than in the USA. Also you don't have it making extra weight in your luggage when you check in at your airport.

I last hunted in Africa in 1977, not the full Safari, but I had permission to shoot thin skinned game over a very large estate. The owner of the Estate said he had seen the 458 used against Cape Buffalo. Now maybe this particular animal was tougher than most, but it took 13 rounds, and it eventually bled to death. Now I'm sure it has been done with less ammo but if two Pro Hunters and their client couldn't kill it with less rounds expended, I wouldn't be taking a 458 with me if I ever went back.
However your MMV.

Harry

Harry,
They buy them because they want them, they are fun, and the hunters always have the hope of being able to hunt Africa.I understand that some people live where they can't own whatever they want and handloading is very difficult.If I had the money, I would have one of every caliber and several of some, including British,metrics, and American calibers.BTW, the 458 became popular during the time it was for practical purposes the "only game in town".The Brits and Continentals were too busy rebuilding their lives,so the Americans dominated the hunting.Things are better now, but since the 458 was well established, it just hung on. I'm glad I live where I do, and wish all my friends could.
Mike

Harry & Mike:
I don't think there's any real disagreement here and I too have heard some horror stories about the tenacity of Cape Buffalo.
I agree that only a minimal supply of ammunition is required on a big game hunt and that can be taken as a general recommendation.
When I was deer hunting in Illinois on a regular basis I used to buy a fresh 5 pack of 12 gauge slugs every year. I would take a couple of sight in shots to make sure everything was ok. Of the numerous bucks I took over the years none required a 2nd shot and none went more that a few feet after being hit. I was sorting thru ammo awhile back and found several 5 packs with two slugs still remaining.
It is my hope that I will still get the opportunity to go on at least one safari. I've been invited to South Africa by a professional hunter I've done video work for in the past but to date I haven't made it.
Jim

I'll be happy to fill that slot if you decide not to go! Just keep filming to help pay for my trophy fees!