doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Double rifle cartridge question?

Why are modern rimless cartridges like the 458WM or 416Rem described often as being "problematic" in double rifle stopping guns? Ejection or Extraction problems? Thanks...

They answered this for already at AH forum very nicely.
Pressure, extraction.

The 458 Weatherby Magnum and the .416 Remington we the answers to questions that no Big Game hunter ever asked. The British line of Big Game Rifle Cartridges were all designed to be suitable for double rifles and the afore mentioned cartridges just added unnecessary additional rounds to the big bore selection. There's not an animal that has ever lived on this planet that couldn't be taken down by British Nitro Express rounds. The .458 WM and the ,416 Rem. were surplus to requirements before they were even made. JMHO.

Harry

With all due respect I am going to differ with you. Double rifles, as we all know are expensive, and really only of use for hunting dangerous game at short ranges in places like Africa. The American hunter who purchased a bolt action Weatherby or Winchester did so for multiple reasons in addition to cost. Most American hunters are very familiar with bolt action rifles as they are the predominate big game hunting rifles here. The 458 Winchester and 460 Weatherby are rimless and far more suitable to bolt action rifles than the rimmed nitro express rounds. These rifle are also suitable for dangerous game such as Grizzly Bear so would be useful to the hunter here as well as in Africa.
When someone can buy something comparable to another item and it costs less, is more versatile and the user if very operationally familiar with it it's usually an easy decision to make.
I just checked and the Model 70 Winchester in 458 Magnum is still available brand new for under $2,000.. What would a British double say in 470 Nitro Express from one of the few remaining makers sell for at this time?

Here's a used John Rigby that's currently for sale that should meet your criteria:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/JOHN-RIGBY-CO-Sidelock-Double-Rifle.cfm?gun_id=100340486
Jim

italiansxs,
Not to pick nits, but neither 458 Win nor 460 Weatherby are rimless.Rather they are belted.
Mike

Mike:
The 458 Winchester Mag is essentially a rimless case with the rim and belt diameter being one and the same at .532.

The 458 is based on the 375 Holland & Holland magnum. Here's the writeup on that cartridge:

"The .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is a medium-bore rifle cartridge. The .375 H&H was only the second cartridge ever to feature a belt, now common among magnum rounds.[1] The belt is for headspace, due to the narrow shoulder.[2] The belt replaced the rim in function on these new rimless cartridges."

Also keep in mind that back when the 458 Winchester Magnum was introduced African hunting laws required a rifle cartridge of .40 or larger for hunting dangerous game. So this I believe is the primary reason Winchester developed the 458 for a bolt action Model 70.

Jim

italiansxs,
I indicated I knew it was sort of "nit picking",so I won't go to the trouble of posting any of the many diagrams of different case types showing rimmed, rimless,belted,and rebated(which is also "rimless")as different case types.
Mike

Mike:
I'm well aware of all the different case types. My point was Winchester would have had a hell of time designing a bolt action rifle for example the 470 Nitro Express that would feed reliably primarily due to the rimmed design. And they along with Remington and Weatherby perceived a market for a .400 caliber bolt action rifle for dangerous game hunting.

My real intended response here is to the poster on this thread who stated this:

"The .458 WM and the ,416 Rem. were surplus to requirements before they were even made. JMHO."

Jim

all it takes to feed a rimmed cartridge in a bolt gun is a single stack slant box magazine and the will to make it feed. Rigby did it on the very first magnum mausers with the 400/350. I'm betting if Winchester wanted the model 70 to feed a .470, they could have happily done it.

Well:
For what ever reason the chose not to do so. I have been told in the past that they believed it would be difficult to get a magazine fed bolt action to feed this type of cartridge reliably.