doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com German Double engraver question

For now I have searched high and low and have not found what I was searching for on the Witten crucible steel with the quality mark Excelsior, Tiegelstahl - Qualit�tsmarke Excelsior(Wittener Exzelsiorstahl). Seems Excelsiorl�ufe were touted as having been tested for military and sporting applications and were found superior to other crucible steel of the time. Its origins may have been much earlier but its merits were acknowledged circa 1902. Still not sure when or if the trademark was filed and am still searching for the sporting weapon with the earliest set of Witten Excelsior tubes. I'm guessing post 1893?

But most fitting for H.A. Lindner to choose such a quality steel for his sporting weapons to wear.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mike,

Unfortunately, I don't have any information on Rolf Peter.

Roger

I don't think I've posted this prior but this looks to be a doc from when Witten was in receivership or during liquidation. I wonder who picked up the pieces?


Gu�stahl und Witten Fabrik - vormals Berger & Co. 1885 doc
to Gu�stahl - Werk Witten, Witten a. d. Ruhr

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, a little off subject, but is it correct that Witten Escelsior, as well as Krupp special, refused to sell shotgun barrels in single tubes, but always sold them fitted together and finished, except for chamber and blueing? I assume that means a small gunmaker might have a set of barrels around for quite awhile before using it. Which might answer a question I've often wondered about, why the engraver we are discussing here had to return to the Russian sector and then there was to be a delay of a unknown period of time for his return with the shorter set of barrels.

Thanks

Had a D M Lefever crossbolt gun [Optimus] that had Krupp Special tubes. I doubt they were fitted and finished by anyone but Lefever .

You are probably right Daryl. It's something I seem to remember reading at some point. I think it was in a article in "American Rifleman" but can not swear to it. Raimey's post just brought it to mind so I thought I would ask.

Bill:
There was a huge fight over tariffs on rough bored tubes and sporting weapons(Schoverling, Daly & Gales interest) in the late 1800s and early 1900s, pre-WWI, centered on tubes themselves. Makers here fought to keep the tariff as low as possible on sight tubes, "gun barrels rough-bored" - The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co. & others I'm sure.

I believe references can be found in Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life

"All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country(U.S. of A.) to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or "tubes" as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box."

I have a sneaking suspicion Krupp & Sauer teamed up and had the bulk of the Krupp lot that was used by American makers rolled in/near Liege. One of the makers had an exclusive Krupp right. I've read an account or 2 that Krupp tubes upon arrival in the U.S. of A. had the logo of a soldier on them. One exception would have been the Krupp 3 Ringe Special Weapons Grade steel which I'm sure like Whitworth & others had a certificate that accompanied it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It took me quite awhile to find where I had read about the barrel steel, but FWIW the link follows. The page # is 25 and the title is "More about Gun Barrel Steel" by Fred Adolph

http://books.google.com/books?id=EpcwAQA...eel&f=false

I'd take most of what he pens with a large grain of iodized salt. Anyway I believe the phrase from an article on Ithaca's importation of tubes read something like the following:

"the Krupp Essen fluid steel barrels with their stamped trademark showing little soldier holding a gun"

From what I can glean, the certificate that accompanied the Whitworth & Sauer Spezial Weapons Grade Steel was a document that guaranteed that at any point if a failure occurred, the manufacture was bound to replace them.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I usually stick to large blocks of salt, which is why I asked the experts in here. <grin>