doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com C. Mode

Prompted by popular demande (i.e. Raimey), here is the data on C. Mode.

Born July 26 1870 at 4PM from Pierre Mode, cartwright and Adele Faure, laundress at 1, rue du marche 15eme, Paris.
Married to Adrienne Lelievre on 3/1/1910 in Chaville.
Living 91, rue de Richelieu, 2eme, Paris

Written in 1923:
Worked from 1894 to 1910 for the SFM, an ammunition company.
Was head of sales for Lefaucheux/Rieger from 1910 on.
Owner of Lefaucheux from 1914. Owner of Pirlet & Cie.
Was drafted in 1890 for 3 years as a non-commissioned officer in the infantry, drafted back from 1915 to 1918. Was used as a worker at SFM his former employer. The shop was closed from 1914 to the end of the war.
Received prizes in many exhibition from Turin 1911 to Rio de Janeiro 1922.
Assigned patents: 455.208 dated 5/13, 496.279 3/18, 499.505 3/18.
No crime committed.

Ordained knight of the L of H on 4/20/1923.

There is no data on his demise.

Interesting letter here.

Note that he was able to reach a very respectable social position while coming from a very modest background. He bought Lefaucheux shortly after Rieger's death in 1913.

The Legion of Honor files are bringing out amazing data never ferreted out before!

Hope this helps...

WC-

WC:
I really appreciate the effort. You are not one of the Legionnaires are you?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Nope, just found the way to mine it.
WC-

Note that in that lovely find that J. Chevalier was successor to Eugene Lefaucheux, or did we already know that?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post315903

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

So I guess M. Mode was active prior to 1834? Most interesting.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I guess if my name was C�lestin Jules Mod�, I'd sign C. Mod� also.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I find it a bit difficult to believe that a brace of percussion dueling pistols wearing C. Mod�, Armurier Bte. Paris 0.47" Calibre were made post 1894?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, surprising for sure, but the mores of the upper crust are usually more resilient than one might think.
Still, they would have to have been made post WWI. Any proof mark of any kind?
Celestin was certainly not part of a dynasty. I doubt that a cartwright could have built those pistols.
BTW the patronym is not common. There is only one listed in the L of H directory vs five Gastinne and over 300 Guyots.

I am gonna mine this vein all the way.
Any requests for other names?
Weill, Callens, Verney-carron etc.
Just let me know.

I already looked for Nicolas Guyot, and he is not in there.

WC-

Although possible, I can't see that stepped lock design making it past say 1900. Not sure of any proofmarks and have just seen images of the cased pair.

Let's see:

Pirlet for sure.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There is no Pirlet in the proper time frame.
WC-

Hum, what was the time period for the C. Mod� acquired Pirlet & Cie?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

No Raimey, the 1834 prize was inherited from Lefaucheux (Casimir).
WC-

I don't have any data on that, but I would venture to believe that Pirlet was acquired after Lefaucheux-Rieger, and maybe during WWI, when sales of sporting arms had to be non-existant, and therefore when a sporting gunshop was not valuable.
The Mode records shows that the Lefaucheux house was closed by military order in 1914, likely for the duration of the war.

WC-

Thanks again for the effort. Do you know if there is a section in the law that requires the gunmakers to close up shop and join forces? I was just curious when the houses merged and how in the world Mod� was funded to absorb the other concerns. Is the dubbing as a Knight the same as a Royal Appointment in other countries and was there a yearly fee? Did they also use the term Bte.(Brevete) after there name as advertising?

Soci�t� Pirlet fils et Cie, armurerie, 26, rue du Faubourg-St-Honor�.

Maison Mod� - PIRLET 91, rue de Richelieu

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

http://www.amoskeagauction.com/86/34.html

I found that listing for the dueling pistols and it does not that they wear Belgian proofmarks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Accent on the e of Mode or not??

I would say yes, without reservation: C�lestin Jules Mod�.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes for the accent, I just don't know how to do it.
WC-

The Mod� file shows that the Paris garrison commander forced him to close shop in 1914. And of course all male subjects were draftable.
One fascinating aspect in the file is that Mod� had to prove that he did serve *and* did not make profits from trading with the government in order to be eligible.
He ended up serving for an ammunition making company and not on the front, so he had it pretty good.
I'll remind folks that 1.5 Million French men died in WWI out of 40 Million total population. It was truly a bloodbath that gutted an entire generation. By the end of the war, women simply could not find men to marry.

I am not an expert on this subject but the L of H was created by Napoleon. Early on, a pension of 250FF was given out. Not only did it disappear, but inductees had to pay to get in.
It was used for valor or services rendered to the nation.
Our subjects were usually recommended by the ministry of commerce, and the military personnel by the ministry of defense.
The L of H is very much a republican (French meaning) thing and bears no nobility value. It cannot be passed on.
There are multiple ranks:
Chevalier (Knight)
Officier
Commandeur
Grand-Officier
Grand-Croix

The president is Grand-Croix by default.

The medal was highly sought after in the 19th and first part of the 20th century.

Brevet� means patentee and has nothing to do with the L of H.

I don't know how Mod� bought the other houses. One possibility is that he bought them on the cheap when they were dying anyways. Lots of houses did not manage the gunmaking revolution of the last part of the 19th century properly and were falling out of favor. Another opportunity was the old masters passed.
Rieger had bought many of them before him (Rochatte, Beringer, E. Lefaucheux, Arthur Nouvelle, etc...).
The letter that you published shows additions stamped by Mode on the Lefaucheux letterhead. Pirlet seems to be one of them.

All the best
WC-

1927 Antoine Joseph Defourny sidelock with assisted opener wearing Compressed Steel tubes and maybe an encircled LB on each tube.

Anyone recognize the maker/firearms merchant on the toplever? I do not think the bottom term to be Berntheisel. It looks like Puskam�ves Her�nyi Gothard & Stirling, Szombathely(Steinamanger), but I would bet my spelling is atrocious. Or is it even French?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, there's a Stirling Castle in Scotland, and Stirling certainly isn't a typical French name. Boothroyd also lists a John Stirling, gunmaker, in business in Yorkshire. But that dates from mid-19th century, so not a very likely connection.

So, you are going to tell me that a British(either of the isles for those conscience) firearms merchant in 1927 is going to have his name placed on the toplever of a Belgian made sidelock? Is that an i between the names?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Puskam�ves Her�nyi Gothard & Stirling, Szombathely( Steinamanger )

An attempt to magnify noise.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not sure it's an i, Raimey. A bit blurry to read clearly. What am I seeing in front of Stirling? Could it be SA for Societe Autonyme?

I thought it to be OF but like I said, a magnification of noise. What about that bottom term?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Herenyi seems to mean Hungarian.
I have access to one (Hungarian).
Only ~ 7 million people speak Hungarian and the language is unlike anything else in Europe or elsewhere.
I'll ask.
WC-

Nice sleuthing there, W.C. Seems Stirling is a Hungarian name and I stumbled on a Her�nyi Gothard S�ndor, not the same name put a lead in the the riht direction and then I found fegyverkov�cs/Puskam�ves Her�nyi Gothard & Stirling, Szombathely( Steinamanger ) on Shotgun World:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=254949

With Emile Bernard name/tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rs

If Stirling is a Hungarian name, interesting coincidence--because it's also a British name. Founder of the Special Air Service was a Stirling; relative of his, Archie Stirling, married Dame Diana Rigg (of "The Avengers" fame). There's an actress daughter named Claire Stirling. And of course Stirling Castle goes back a very long ways. Wonder if maybe a displaced Brit in Hungary? Something like Petrik ending up in France.

I don't know but it is right up my alley. And of course much more research needs to be performed in this area, probably along with a site visit. I still fancy the Avengers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I fancied Diana Rigg for a long time!

It turns that (once again) I was wrong.
My friend says that the marking means "Gothard" (First name) "Herenyi" (last name) "Stirling" possibly street name, "Szombathely" (Town).
Gothard would be an antiquated first name. and Herenyi means "from Hereny", which is a suburb of Szombathely, but would be a last name for sure.
It happens that my friend's brother lives in that very town and might look into the matter.
I have searched for a possible Stirling street in Szombathely, but I could not find one. However, I imagine that very few old street names would have survived the 20th century.
I'll report if I hear something new.
All the best,
WC-

Lovely effort. I thought that might be the case as the reversal of names is very common for the Hungarian firearms merchants. I find it difficult to believe that the Belgian makers, or other subcontractors, could get the name correct every time.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A few things I stumbled across:


J. Girard & Cie, 48, rue de l'Echiquier, Paris - 1907 advert w/ Le Choke - Bored Excelsior


Pourde Pyroxl�e - 1895



http://books.google.com/books?id=ElE9AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA59&lpg=RA1-PA59&dq=Acier+Special+Pour+Poudre+Pyroxyl%C3%A9e&source=bl&ots=m42H00ZHxf&sig=kBHoIFqZ9QPDGl6fSvjQrz9OagI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n2JrUdSnM5Ge8gT5hoDwCA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Acier%20Special%20Pour%20Poudre%20Pyroxyl%C3%A9e&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

An interesting Excelsior ad (from "I know all"--and the Internet wasn't even around then!!!)

You could give an Excelsior an 8 day shooting trial--for free.

Marc:
Thanks for the lead and I cannot make out the address:








Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That is a kick a$$ gun.
Chopper lump Whitworth, side clips, great engraving, the whole shabang.
Address is 9, rue des filles st Thomas, Paris. It's in the 2nd district.
Not far from Faure-Lepage nor from Lefaucheux/Rieger....
I would guess 1900-1910 time frame. The whitworth SN should be able to help on that.
On that subject,does anybody have a time frame table for the Whitworth tube numbers?
That would be a great resource...
All the best,
WC-

P.S> I don't know who marked the "helmet head" on the flats

The 9 could be a 2.
I don't have any trace of that address being Mode's. That's why it would be nice to date the gun from the Whitworth tube numbers...
WC-

I could not recognize it nor too could not find it for C. Mod�. I believe that is why Marc forwarded the listing to me. Pretty high number for Sir Joseph Whitworth tubes and I was trying to recall if all tubes wore a consecutive number or if some tubesets had the same number or not. Crossedchisels should have the range written on the back of his hand. Like Sauer's 3 Ringe, each tubeset(I don't think single tube) was accompanied by a certificate and was a warranty that accompanied the tubeset in the even of tube failure.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

WC:
I violated 1st principles as I didn't even look at the provided description:

"C. Mod� Armurier, 9 Rue de Filles, St. Thomas, Paris"

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Seems Kilby acquired/peddled Whitworth steel tubes in tubesets:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130190&page=1

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post230400
Matska - Whitworth 20390 - with the Sauer 21887 makes one wonder to whom the number belonged. Was T. Kilby the Whitworth raw tube source?

Feodor Osipovitch Matska peddled his offerings till circa 1907 so a tubeset with Whitworth #19595 would have been prior to that so a sporting weapon with a Whitworth number in the 24k range would be in your date range estimation.

Curious why C. Mod� picked them up in singles.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1912 Purdey:43350-43351
So the 46xxx Mode barrels would be just prior to WWI, which is quite puzzling, as his address was different (and closeby) at the time.
WC-

Probably just before or just after WWI. After he was discharged did he have the same address? But for the moment I'm perplexed 1st by this Whitworth steel number and 2nd could both singles and doubles be found in the same serialization?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I wonder when Sir Thomas Kilby & Son, Gun Barrel Manufacturers, 11 Court, Steelhouse Lane, Birmingham pulled in their shingle?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Looks like we need to include Henry Squuires of 3 George Yard & Wardour Street, Soho, London as well as 9 Ingestre Road, Kentish Town, as an early source of Whitworth tubes. But info suggests he went thru liquidation at least once.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

What do you mean by that, Raimey?
The Whitworth numbering system has always been one number per tube,and in a consecutive order. Of course, those were most often chopper lumps and if one was going to screw up one tube, one would need the proper side to replace it with.
The Purdey tube numbers are marked on each side of the forend loop. The Mode tubes are marked on the tubes themselves and with a very different font.
One is left to wonder who exactly was marking the tubes. My guess is the gun finisher.
I have a 1901 .303 Purdey double and the tube numbers are totally different (14xx) and are not in order compared to the shotgun tubes of the era. The marking is the same in font, location and size, though.
As for your first question, I have never seen this address associated with C.Mode before.
Best regards,
WC-

So what if there is a tubeset with the same number on both? What is your opinion now and who kept the ledger of the serialization? Was it T. Kilby, Whitworth, then Armstrong, then Vickers?


Note the same number on both tubes, Kilby, Whitworth?


Note the same number on both tubes, Kilby, Krupp, Sauer?


Matska- He finished it but I have serious reservations that he applied the 209595 number or any similar of the above.

You mentioned recently that L. Bernard sold in tubesets, I believe, so does the same apply here as well as single? What is the difference in sourcing between a tubeset stamped with Whitworth's trademark and consecutive numbers on each tube vs. a tubeset stamped with the Whitworth(or Krupp's 3 Ringe) trademark and the same number on each tube( I have seen several of these)?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I am afraid that I don't have a proven answer to these questions.
Here is what I think:
- Purdey marks tube numbers, one per tube on the Forend loop.
- Kilby marks tube assemblies, one # per assembly (marked on each tube)
- Bernard made and marked tube assemblies, one # per assembly.

I guess the practice depends on what was sourced outside, tubes or assembled tubes.

In the case of Purdey, I have no doubt that Purdey did the marking. The forend loop is made by Purdey, and is independent from the tubes.
The process is no different from marking Patent Use Numbers (PUNs). There had to be a ledger at the maker. The process existed.

In the case of Bernard, he was for sure providing assembled tubes, so kept track of the numbers himself.

Best regards,
WC-

All right, let's say there was an APUN. So what was the cost of the royalty and who were the agents with the satellite station. On other APUNS, research reveals that the APUN was applied at a satellite station so was Purdey one such outlet? I don't think there were many outlets; no more than a 1/2 dozen or less, total.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've thought about it a tick & about the only possibility for Purdey to apply the APUN would be under the umbrella of a tube maker being an authorized outlet of Whitworth steel tubes. Too many outlets would be difficult to track the royalties. Unless you can show me in an entry in a ledger, Purdey was no different than any other continental maker and was sourcing their tubes, so for now I find it difficult to see that Purdey was applying APUN numbers. As always, follow the money.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I did find a reference where Purdey & Whitworth were real chummy in the 1880s with Purdey being the 1st to opt for the Whitworth Compressed Steel. It was noted Purdey was the exclusive recipient of a large contingent of raw tubes as well as inferred that Whitworth supplied tubes in the raw state, but I don't believe that for a minute. I just don't see Whitworth forging raw tubes. But what I do see is that there was an immediate tube maker who took the Whitworth bar steel and converted it into a tube in the raw, or better, state and then delivered his wares to Purdey and others. Mr. John Robertson looks to be the connection between Whitworth & Purdey. He worked at Whitworth and then on to Purdey where he rose to the upper echelon.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For what it's worth, I am looking at the following. Each is marked with the Whitworth stamp, but no tube numbers.

Cashmore Nitro ,ca. 1900
Lefever Optimus, ca 1910
Greener Imperial , ca 1900
L C Smith A2, ca 1904

Mr. Hallquist:
If those tubes in question are post 1897, I wonder if Armstrong was sourced for the Whitworth steel. Any idea of the importer on the American variants? True in 1897 the engineering firms of Armstrong & Whitworth merged but there looks to have been a merger of the Armstrong & Whitworth steel concerns in 1882(or was it Armstrong-Mitchell)???? I may have to eat some crow, which is fine, on Purdey getting tubes from Whitworth, but I still hold that they sourced from an actual tube maker. I've seen copies of a sales book page for a 1927 Purdey that was fitted with Whitworth tubes. Was there a Whitworth steel concern, Whitworth engineering or both?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All right, I think I have it sorted. Joseph Whitworth patented his compressed fluid steel process in 1865 and the term or protection ran until 1879. At that time after consideration by the powers that be, it was determined to extend the protection period for another 5 years until 1884. Even though the process(not steel type) was patented in 1865, it wasn't fully developed until 1869, a time when the Siemens-Martin furnace came online in Britain by at least 3 makers and was the result of a compromise of between Carl Wilhelm Siemesn & Pierre-�mile Martin. Joseph Whitworth & Company, Limited(converted/formed 1864) owned 2 Siemens-Martin furnaces where they took pig iron and heated it up to a fluid state. It took about 8 hours to complete the cycle and was quite longer than the Bessemer process. But it allowed for better quality control. Can't say if they added any percentages. Anyway, while in a fluid state they formed ingots under pressure and some applications may have been pressed into the desired cast form. Whitworth had corresponding pressure requirements for specific steel needs.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1875 definition for Whitworth steel variants


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,
Well the royalties are not hard to figure out, they were already paid or at least invoiced when Whitworth delivered the tubes...They were not royalties per se, but tangible goods purchased...
I did not say that it was a PUN process, I said that it was similar to the PUN process in the sense that the maker was responsible for marking the gun with the proper number(s)
As for the raw tubes, it is not that difficult to believe. Purdey had a barrel shop with 7 "barrel makers" in 1912 and 9 in 1889. They had also made their barrels from scratch some time in the first part of the 19th century.
"Crossedchisles" should be able to shed some light on this matter.
I am surprised that nobody so far has kept track of the Whitworth numbers per serial number and manufacturing dates. A worthy endeavor no doubt.

Best regards,
WC-

By the way, the tube numbering might have been a Purdey tradition and not necessarily a requirement from Whitworth, and this behavior was possibly copied over by other makers.
WC-

I suppose it could be entered as hearsay for now. And it may be semantics, but I take issue with the term barrel/tube maker in this instance but would accept barrel filer/polisher and barrel borer. There's a reference somewhere that by the early 1870s there weren't any barrel makers in London. And also it may be semantics but no maker made tubes from scratch where they dug the ore, puddled it and rolled out a tube. That's an illusion propagated by the upper rung makers themselves that from the earth they dug the ore and from their shop out rolled the sporting weapon.

I think the serialization had more structure that some ad hoc maker application of a number. Those numbers are there for a specific reason. But you do have a point that the Whitworth-Purdey relationship was stout and Purdey may have set the bar. But this is just one maker, how would the tubes have been distributed to all other makers and to the U.S. of A.(should be some import documentation there).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Beating a dead horse, and adhering to strict definition of a tube, if a maker received the beginnings of a tube in any other state than bar steel, he was not a barrel/tube maker. There is some gray area or nexus of the universe situation where a tube was sourced with a pilot hole, but if any boring or polishing was performed prior to delivery to a maker, he was not a tube maker. Regarding makers/retailers, my goal is to attribute effort where effort is due by chipping away or eroding the fantasy/fallacy that a maker/retailer performed all tasks in house. If you sourced, say you sourced(its OK) and the British makers were not immune to this practice. The sourcing of specific mechanics or talent pools is going to establish a quality modell, which should not just be purely based on name only. Makers/retailers for the most part functioned as merely quality control.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

One of our astute members(actually posted on this thread) has reminded me that S,D&G(Schoverling, Daly & Gales) was the Krupp authorized importer/distributor for the U.S. of A. and so I don't think it would be a stretch at all to say they were the source of Whitworth compressed fluid steel tubes for the U.S. of A. Curious as to how they sourced & their ledger would be a goldmine of info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, I'd say that S,D&G was the U.S. of A. importer. Wonder how they did gee-haw with the American makers.


1903 Hunter Arms advert for Damascus Crown Steel, Nitro Steel, Krupp & Whitworth Fluid Steel Barrels.

Any of you Hunter Arms experts have a set of those Damascus Crown Steel tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Me thinks they missed a ',' brother

1895

Me thinks you are 100% correct. I had a good chuckle & I hope you did. So can we assume that the advert with the omitted comma is in ascending order with respect to cost/quality & your post(probably circa 1900 also?) is in descending order. Without reading 20 pages of threads, what was the 1st year that one will find an LC Smith with Whitworth tubes? Post 1884?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I owned a low grade D M Lefever crossbolt gun, ca. 1905, so made at an Ohio address. The probable Belgian fluid steel barrels had SD&G stamped on the underside of the barrels near the flats. Not sure if this meant the gun was retailed by SD&G or that the barrel material was furnished by them. At the time Shoverling Daly and Gales was selling guns produced by most of the U. S. makers, so they had a relationship with them, and the relationship could have run both ways, with SD&G selling barrel blanks.

Thanks Mr. Hallquist & the way I remember was that Auguste Schoverling had an import house where the tubes/tubesets were directed as rough bored imports when all the legal back & forth was transpiring. Within the he said, she said, it appears that a large block of the American makers had disdain for S,D&G but I guess if the makers were allowed into S,D&G's racket, then they may have played friends. What about Baker's with Whitworth tubes, earliest date?

Note that Whitworth more than likely, with probably a nod to Krupp, set the tube advertising tone with the term Fluid Compressed Steel. All that followed use some of the terms or some combination.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I failed to note that the Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel was kept as a trade secret and few saw it prior to the protection lapsing circa 1884. I'm still not sure if Whitworth added any percentages, but with steel in a fluid state, the workers would compress a column(width not defined) of said steel 8 feet in height to a shorter height with the compression of 1.5" per foot in height in about 5 minutes. I would say then it was transformed into bar form. It is possible that for specific applications that there were molds that could compress the fluid steel. But as far as I can tell, then end user sourced the Whitworth steel in bar form. So S,D&G would have had to subcontract the transformation of the bar steel to a tube.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey: Houchins states that the Monogram, A2, and A3 were first offered with Whitworth steel in 1895.

Raimey,I think there was a Baker Whitworth model[called Pigeon Hammerless] offered ca. 1897.

Interesting Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel tubeset by Lebeau Courally being numbers 60846 & 60847. I would guess these to be some of he very late ones?



Hum, on LC & Baker I would have guessed a bit earlier say 1893. Would the trademark be present or just the name?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Whitworth Steel barrels were typically marked in one or more of the following ways on Smith guns:
1. Hand engraved on the barrel rib or (later) top of the right barrel.

1921 Monogram



2. The manufacturers serial number for each tube stamped on the barrel flat.
3. A 'W' on the right barrel flat.
4. The trademark "sheaves of wheat" stamped on the bottom of each tube.



I don't know the time period for the different markings

And don't overlook the 1911 "Whitwroth" Monogram Oops

Dr. Hause;
So, what is the highest serial number(Whitworth) found on a LC Smith with Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel?

Thanks for all the effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Sorry brother, no clue. Might be some specimens at The Southern this weekend though

Drew, do you know if any certificates exist that accompanied the tubes or tubesets? Considering the misspelling and W(so that they would know it was Whitworth?) on the flats, WC seems to have another point that the makers applied the stamps. Apparently the American makers did not follow suite. I would tend to think that these tubes used by the American makers were sourced along the same lines as all the rest, Cockerill, Krupp, etc.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That is interesting, probably happenstance, but the Dingley Act/Tariff of 1897(Rep. Nelson Dingley, Jr. of Maine) may have increased the import of rough bored tubes from Belgium as I've read that 1/3 of the sporting weapons imports were tubes/tubesets from Liege. WWI of course put the nip on the imports but even by 1909 when the Payne-Aldrich act, which was to relieve tariffs on imports, was passed, the American makers were looking very strong at inland sourcing.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It appears I may be all wet on the Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel bar stock(carottes) being converted into tubes as Whitworth formed hollow cylinders via his unique molds with hydraulic presses.


1873 diagram showing the mold & the hydraulic compression cross-section.

It is very difficult to extract data on shotgun tubes as the market was such a very, very small portion of the overall steel making process. Steel concerns were interesting in peddling steel plating for ships and big guns for hurling 100lb cylinders of lead. And barrel makers wanted contracts on millions of implements of war. So info is scarce and has to be either inferred or deduced. Seeing a rough Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel tube would be most insightful. But when one considers the fight over the U.S. of A. tariff on "shotgun barrels, forged, rought bored" I believe we can come to a consensus that indeed Whitworth & Company was supplying rough cylinders and I think this to be the only case where a steel mixer or steel process developer provided cylinders for shotgun tubes.


So it was Baldwin Bros. & Company that was leading the charge on importation of Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel tubes.


Typically, it took several passes, say 15, to bore a cylinder to the desired diameter. The cutting head was well oiled and lubricated and in some cases a stream of water was employed. Wet rags were placed on the outside for a thermo effect in an effort to prevent the loss of temper. So it is possible that Purdey's mechanics bored the cylinders and employed a La meche or square head, maybe a spill with a piece of paper or leather, being some 10 to 12 inches for the final cutting. Enlargement was accomplished by the aide of a spill, an insert of wood, paper, leather - the Etelle.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Good find, Raimey

Just spilt milk that I was able to get up. Their name was in a couple of the tube steel threads. Baldwin Brothers & Company in 1876 were at 72 Broadway, NY and oddly enough a listing 3 years earlier has an Austin Baldwin & Company at the same address and it is an agent for a boat ride across the pond. At the time there were Clyde Steamers that went from NY to Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast & Londonderry. They were aptly named:

Alabama
Georgia
Virginia
Pennsylvania

I wonder just how may tubes rode across on the Alabama? Also I'm curious if the Whitworth certificates were kept at Baldwin Bros. & Company, 72 Broadway?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

After 1900, I believe William Ford has the correct term for the effort being performed - barrel borer:


And he was one of the best.

I found the reference I was thinking about regarding London barrel makers/forgers(pattern welded only I'm sure) and it was the Fullerd family of William & Thomas Fullerd of Clerkenwell - Middlesex. William expired in 1830 but had a son named William(1816-1874?) which I assume continued with his Uncle Thomas for time. Some give 1844 as the last of the pattern welded tube effort by the boys Fullerd/Fullard but as talented as William, Sr. was on big bore tubes, surely he passed on some expertise to William, Jr.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dec. 11th, 1879 Note - See that Mr. Purdey was one of the folk that was interviewed.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It would be interesting to see the Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid compressed Steel tubes sourcing numbers from the pre-1897 merger with Armstrong & post merger. So if all Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel tubesets are chopper-lump and considering the hook to be an original integral component, then original raw cast would have the hook and the cast mold would have the female counterpart of the hook? Now you collectors of those sporting weapons from the little British Isles don't throw any stones just yet, but I've read opinions that Purdey consider Krupp steel tubes from 1897 to circa 1900. We know that Kilby used Krupp 3 Ringe Steel, so are there any know Purdey offerings with original Krupp steel tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ah, ha. So it is true:

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/Guns-For-Sale...120719120147001
Purdey #16252 - August 1898 - with Krupp steel tubes

So from 1897 to the early 1900s, Purdey for some reason, maybe cost?, opted to use Krupp steel tubes but in short order changed their mind back to Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel. I have read that Purdey considered Krupp as strong or stronger that Whitworth's.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Strike, that was the reason according to Richard Beaumont(1984):

"The only break in this Whitworth tradition was in 1898, when the steel workers went on strike. Between July and December of that year Purdey's had to go to Krupp for barrels and made eighty-three guns with their tubes."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just to put a Bernard number with a Hannover retailer. I wonder if H. Scherping acquired the Gesteck and had a Suhl maker to complete it. 1877 for the Bernard tubeset but it was on-hand(Vorratszeichen) in a shop in early 1893.




27134.1877

Possibly the wrong thread for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Marc made an interesting find on a Belgian sourced Henry Rieger so I'll put it on this thread until I find a more appropriate one.







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As usual, was searching for something else and stumbled on this Paris retailer and his interesting story. I've seen a few of his offerings and decided to attach any & all here.


F�lix Warnier, 11, Boulevard Bonne - Nouvelle, Paris
Fabrique D'Armes de Chasse et de Tir

On the night of April 2nd, 1913, l'armurier F�lix Warnier(26 years at time so he was born circa 1887 and had just hung out his shingle) had enjoyed dinner with his wife, his parents and a couple of friends, Ms. Forbracq being one that peddled ladies under garments( courti�re en lingerie ). After dinner he went to his weapons storage locker for some purpose, maybe to check inventory and his wife Charlotte dashed to assist him and for some reason toss him some pistols. His left hand had 3 automatic(I assume semi but auto is possible) pistols and I believe the last received was a Browning, which discharged shooting Charlotte in stomach/liver. Charlotte succumbed to her mortal wound later that eve in the care of Dr. Mayard at a nearby residence. F�lix Warnier was arrested for his wife Charlotte's murder and stood trial in Oktober. I believe he was acquitted.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

3 pistols in the hand at once? Guy must've had hands like a gorilla.

A fellow Army Reserve officer (police officer in civilian life) was cleaning his backup gun--a Browning .380--in the BOQ. Removed the magazine, but forgot about the round in the chamber. The accidental discharge took off the tip of his middle finger. Round then passed through the door of his room, through the door of the room across the hall, thence out the wall of the BOQ. This was one of the old WWII "temporary" barracks converted to individual rooms, and while they stood the test of time (still being used in the 1980's), the construction wasn't exactly first rate.

This example peddled by F�lix Warnier will play tricks on your eyes. Are you sporting your monocle Dr. Hause?






Bernard Br�vet� - I'd assume this is A. Bernard, Emil Bernard or a Bernard of Liege???

I've seen some active dates of circa 1890 to 1912(FW dans un losange then) so I wonder if F�lix Warnier's father was an armurier??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse