doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unknown symbols on French SXS (image added)

I'm looking for some help identifying some symbols on the barrel flats of my new French game gun. I have a proof book published in 1976 by Wirnsberger, but these symbols aren't in it. What I'm referring to are the pair of birds stamped on the flats of each barrel. In addition, there's S10 stamped on the left barrel flat. I'm curious about that too, however it's the two pair of birds on each barrel flat that has me curious.





I just added this second enlarged image of the pair of birds.

Thanks in advance for any help y'all can give me.

Steve

I would bet they are a manufacturers mark designating grade. You would almost need to know who built it, and have a version of their catalog from the same era of it's building to figure it out.
We don't always get that on French guns. Can we see the rest of it?

Best,
Ted

As I recall it, Ronchard used a running rabbit stamp as a sort of trademark, so I would not be surprised if this was a different manufacturer's trade/grade mark.

Hi Ted,
I currently have the stock off correcting some blemishes. As far as I can tell it's a guild gun. I posted this thread with pictures a while back when I purchased the gun http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=309796&page=all
Steve

Might be the nicest French guild gun I've ever seen. Those marks could even be the retailers, which would further muddy the waters.
I really like shouldering sub 6 lb 12s, but, thats where the love ends. Hard on me, and hard to hit anything. I think Mike McCintosh opined that a 28 should weigh 6 lbs and he might have been right. My 6lb 4oz Tobin 16, loaded with Eley VIPs sure lets me know when it has gone off.

Best,
Ted

Ted,
You haven't experienced true recoil until you've fired my 5lb 1ounce 16 gauge . Even with 1 ounce loads it still kicks lika' hell.

Hi Rockdoc,
I have never seen the "fallen ducks" before.
It sure is a trade mark, but I don't know whom it belongs to.
As Ted says, could be either a retailer or a maker.
I shudder when I think of pulling the trigger on a 5lbs 16Ga...
Maybe the stock needs a better fitting as well.
Good luck with this.
WC-

Steve:
What is in the oval near the rib on the underside of the left tube? Also is S10 stamped on the water table? I've stumbled upon a few that had similar stamps of the cupped-up ducks. That's what you want to see before you pull the trigger. Anyway, the few that I've seen pointed to another tube maker like Jean Breuil and had Fanget & Co on it also. Seems that Fanget & Co finished the sporting weapon? The Sxx was also a common stamp on the flat & water table(maybe is number was in the 70s). I think the marks note some sort of test to the tubes and/or trademark like the aforementioned Ronchard Cizeron. Two stamps of a cupped-up duck, so 2 separate tests/inspections. They were rolling their own and proofing their own and for some reason another tube maker contributed some effort. I don't think the lifted image of the French boxlock below to be one in the same.


Canon JB & Fanget & Co. stamps along with a brace of Cupped-Up ducks on each flat.


Subject French sporting weapon.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,
The gun in the picture with the ducks looks virtually identical to mine. The only difference is that mine has slightly fancier checkering. As to your questions, there is an oval stamped next to the lower rib on the left barrel that has F&CIE inside the oval. S 10 is also stamped on the water table along with a proof mark and the guns serial number.

The barrel also has CANON FANGET stamped on the right barrel underneath the forearm.

Thanks for responding to my query.

Steve

Interesting and at this juncture, I'd say that the preponderance of evidence points to Canon Fanget or Fanget & Co. owning the cupped-up duck trademark stamp. Maybe additional info will shore up this hypothesis or point to the actual fella.

The following blog/thread on St. Etienne tube making just might be informative and an English translation most insightful?

http://gravure.blog.fr/2011/03/28/la-fabrication-des-canons-a-saint-etienne-suite-10904999/

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey
That link you posted is part of a blog, I googled la-fabrication-des-canons-a-saint-etienne and then clicked on the English translation google provides and was able to read the translated version. It's a direct translation so the sentence structure and some words are strange, but over all it's very comprehensible.
Thanks for the link.
Steve
BTW the website has quite a bit more information, all translatable through google.

Steve, you are correct and I have attempted to read it in the translated format, but still the best scenario would be in our native tongue, but yes indeed informative.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Since there are examples with Canon Fanget on the tubes and an encircled M&P in the same location, which I assume is Merley & Pouly (canonnier repreneur de Fanget-successsor of Fanget???), makes one wonder if the encircled F&Cie(Companie) is Fanget & Companie? Is there another Canonnier F. that would be in the running? I wonder if Fanget and Marsot ever joined forces?

Interesting in the blog that they attribute Ronchard Cizeron as importing the fluid steel tube making machinery from Liege.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Nice price, too.

Balp 3 Cours Victor Hugo Saint-Etienne
Berger 60 Rue Mulati�re Saint-Etienne
Bergeron 5 Rue Desflaches Saint-Etienne
Blanchard-Grange 67 Rue Antoine Durafour Saint-Etienne
Blondeau 7 Place Villeboeuf Saint-Etienne
Bonnard 34 Rue du Mus�e Saint-Etienne
Boucher 12 Rue Jean-Baptiste David Saint-Etienne
Bouniard & Barri�re 17 Rue de l'Epreuve Saint-Etienne
Boyer A. 62 Rue du 11 Novembre Saint-Etienne
Breuil Jean 13 Rue Montesquieu Saint-Etienne
Breuil Claude 4 Rue du Rozier Saint-Etienne
Chanson 40 Rue Badouill�re Saint-Etienne
Charlin 18 Rue B�ranger Saint-Etienne
Chartron 3 place Desn�ttes Saint-Etienne
Chataing & Durand Saint-Bonnet-le-Ch�teau
Chausse jeune Saint-Etienne
Chausse Claude 23 Rue Chales Rebour Saint-Etienne
Chavot 34 Rue Cl�ment Forissier Saint-Etienne
Courtial 14 Rue Jean-Baptiste David Saint-Etienne
Damon 7 Rue Fougerolles Saint-Etienne
Darne 71 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Diard 16 Rue Cl�ment Forissier Saint-Etienne
Donnet & Racaudon 31 Rue des Armuriers Saint-Etienne
Douplat Fr�res 38 Rue Badouill�re Saint-Etienne
Faure Joseph 19 Rue des Armuriers Saint-Etienne
Garnier 55 Rue Claude Delaroa Saint-Etienne
Gaucher 12 Rue du Docteur Cordier Saint-Etienne
Gauthet 20 Rue Ferdinand Saint-Etienne
Gersier 61 Rue Michelet Saint-Etienne
Giraudet 22 Rue de Terrenoire Saint-Etienne
Giraudon Boulevard Poincar� Saint-Etienne
Gonon & Portafaix 8 Rue Villeboeuf Saint-Etienne
Grange 13 Rue des Armuriers Saint-Etienne
Guichard 66 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Guillot 11 Place Villeboeuf Saint-Etienne
Heurtier 28 Rue Cl�ment Forissier Saint-Etienne
Humbert 52 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Janisson 28 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Lashermes 99 Rue Antoine Durafour Saint-Etienne
Laspoussas, Driol & Cie 8 Place Villeboeuf Saint-Etienne
Latger 131 Rue Antoine Durafour Saint-Etienne
Maisonnial 13 Rue Cl�ment Forissier Saint-Etienne
Manufacture fran�aise d'Armes et Cycles
Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Marnas 13 Rue du Rozier Saint-Etienne
Marsault 6 Boulevard Valbenoite Saint-Etienne
Mathieu 25 Rue Badouill�re Saint-Etienne
Meunier 7 Rue Jean-Baptiste David Saint-Etienne
Montagny a�n� 48 Rue Gambetta Saint-Etienne
Montcoudiol aux Rivi�res Saint-Bonnet-le-Ch�teau
Pascal 7 Rue Pierre Blachon Saint-Etienne
Philippon 7 Rue Pierre Termier Saint-Etienne
Piat 22 Cours Gustave Nadaud Saint-Etienne
Picard-Fayolle 42 Rue du Vernay Saint-Etienne
Picot fr�res 10 Rue Jean-Baptiste David Saint-Etienne
Pouly & Merley Andr�zieux
Preynat 21 Rue des Armuriers Saint-Etienne
Rey 7 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Rivollier 21 Rue C�sar Bertholon Saint-Etienne
Roullier-Beaume 4 bis Rus Badouill�re Saint-Etienne
Sabot 67 Rue C�sar Bertholon Saint-Etienne
Saunier 12 Rue Montesquieu Saint-Etienne
Sauvinet 31 Rue C�sar Bertholon Saint-Etienne
Seytre-Montagny 68 Rue Mulati�re Saint-Etienne
Sigaud fils 56 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Soleilhac 12 Rue des Armuriers Saint-Etienne
Soulier 83 Rue Antoine Durafour Saint-Etienne
Staron 14 Rue Fougerolles Saint-Etienne
St� G�n�rale M�canique 6 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Tissot 8 Rue Tr�filerie Saint-Etienne
Vacher 2 Rue Jean-Baptiste David Saint-Etienne
Verney-Caron 17 Cours Fauriel Saint-Etienne
Villebonnet 61 Rue Liogier Saint-Etienne
Zavaterro 24 Rue Jean-Claude Tissot Saint-Etienne

A listing of some of the gunmakers in St. Etienne at some point:

http://geneal42.free.fr/Site/histoire/fabricants/armes.htm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

No cupped-up ducks but a similar boxlock with J. Fanget and something encircled:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Artisanal-Stephanois-Canons-J-FANGET-item-965899.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,
So far with French guns I'm 2 for 3. My first was a 12 gauge Manufrance Costo (Robust) which I sold because the cast-off it had affected my shooting (I missed a lot). The second is a 16 gauge I still own made by Jean Breuil. The third is this 12 gauge, I guess the jury's still out on the manufacturer.
Thanks for that list, extensive gun industry to be literally unknown in this country.
Steve

Interesting to note that there were 105 gunmakers still in business in St. Etienne AFTER WWII. I would've thought the number would have been significantly less by then.

Re the barrelmaking article in question, it's interesting and worth saving if you can read French. However, I would not undertake a translation just for the fun of it. Insufficient fun.

Larry,
It's interesting with the romance languages. I'm terrible with languages, after 3 semesters of Spanish the only useful phrase I learned was "No habla Espanol". Still, I've found that by going back to the Latin roots, which crop up in English all the time, it's possible to figure out the essence of what's being said with no formal knowledge of the language.
Steve