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#313618 - 02/14/13 02:59 AM Unusual double with "rotational" system...
Newbie123 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 7
Hallo Everybody!
I just start my adventure with black powder rifles collection...
I do not know much antique rifles and hope that I could use some of Your advise...
There is something I'd like to add to my small collectoin: [img]http://img23.otofotki.pl/iz45_Obraz-124.jpg.html[/img]
[img]http://img23.otofotki.pl/ba783_Obraz-126.jpg.html[/img]
[img]http://img23.otofotki.pl/rq801_Obraz-133.jpg.html[/img]
[img]http://img23.otofotki.pl/uh131_Obraz-152.jpg.html[/img] [img]http://img23.otofotki.pl/yi429_Obraz-135.jpg.html[/img]

Good condition, fully opeartional, 110cm total lenght, barrels 71cm. Silver addings on the barrel....
Any idea what might it be worth?
I will appreciate all Your comments.

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#313621 - 02/14/13 04:16 AM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Newbie123]
Harry Eales Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 625
Loc: England.
Welcome Newbie123,

That over and under, rotating barreled combination Ball and Shotgun is quite fascinating and obviously well made and cared for. Without any markings I can see in the pictures, I would say it was made (rather than manufactured) by a good gunsmith probably in the early 1800's for hunting purposes in possibly Switzerland/Austria/Germany or possibly further east in Europe.

If there are Proof Marks that at least should identify the country of origin, a makers name (if there is one) may also assist.

As to it's value, it looks good enough to grace a museum so it will be of interest to serious firearms collectors and therefore bring a very good price. However, this double is way outside my own area of experience or expertese and would simply be guessing at a price, which is not what you really want. What is the seller asking for it?

You should expect more replies later today once America wakes up.

Harry


Edited by Harry Eales (02/14/13 04:21 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling error
_________________________
Biology is the only science where multiplication can be achieved by division.

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#313623 - 02/14/13 08:05 AM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Newbie123]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8722
Loc: North Alabama
Most interesting. What is the firearms merchant's name atop the rib: Moritz D???? Was it retailed out of Poland and did you acquire it there? Being a little biased, I'd like to say it was made by A.V. Lebeda Prag but I think it may pre-date him a bit and it is possible that it was made by his predecessor Mateji/Matthew(?) Brandejsovi. But I have seen other examples that were noted as coming out of Potsdam/Spandau, but I do not remember them having the rotating feature, which on multi-barrel sporting weapons seemed to be a staple for A.V. Lebeda. I'd guess it to date between 1780 & the early 1800s???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#313693 - 02/14/13 03:50 PM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: ellenbr]
Newbie123 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 7
It says Moritz Doll in Bruchsal....

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#313694 - 02/14/13 03:51 PM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Harry Eales]
Newbie123 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 7
Harry,
thanks for Your respond. Seller wants about 5k USD....

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#313697 - 02/14/13 04:11 PM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Newbie123]
fuhrmann Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 115
In German language this is called a "Wender", from wenden = to turn.
These were actually quite common in flintlock times and I see no specific link to Bohemia or Lebeda, except he still used the Wender principle for his 4-barreled guns.
My feeling is that in percussion times the double-barreled "Wender" was phased out and the true double or cape gun (mostly side by side) took over - but this is just gut feeling.

Here is another example:
http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/aktuelle-auktion.html

Regards,
fuhrmann


Edited by fuhrmann (02/14/13 04:11 PM)

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#313703 - 02/14/13 05:08 PM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Newbie123]
Harry Eales Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 625
Loc: England.
Originally Posted By: Newbie123
Harry,
thanks for Your respond. Seller wants about 5k USD....


Hello Newbie123,

Well, 5,000 USD isn't small change. So you have to ask yourself what do I want it for? Is it going to be a collectors item that won't be shot, or do you intend to use it occasionally? If the latter it would certainly pay to have it looked over by a gunsmith with experience of such arms. It would also be advisable to have the barrels Magnafluxed to see if there are any flaws present which may cause injury or damage when it is fired.

With any firearm that's approximately 200 years old you have to think carefully about firing it beforehand. Kept as a collectors item it will certainly increase in value over the years and your not likely to loose on it, if you should happen to sell it later. Good quality antiques are a better investment these days than stocks and shares.

The final decision is obviously yours. You could try offering less and perhaps meet the seller half way between your price and his, at least you may save a bit of money. You also have to consider why he is selling. If that person is pushed for money, he may accept a lower bid. Whatever you decide, good luck.

Harry
_________________________
Biology is the only science where multiplication can be achieved by division.

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#313811 - 02/15/13 09:34 AM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Newbie123]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8722
Loc: North Alabama
Interesting Fuhrmann. You know how we fancy Lebeda but true similar locks can be found on French wares for the period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#313860 - 02/15/13 03:56 PM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Newbie123]
Chasseur d'ours Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 404
Loc: Hawaii
In the traditional muzzle loading crowd these are called "swivel breeches". Custom made repros of these were somewhat popular in the historical trekking crowd in the 1990s. Two trekkers in my group had them back then. Admittedly I'm not been an active flintlock shooter or trekker for 20 years or so, but I've not seen many lately as compared to back then.


Edited by Chasseur d'ours (02/15/13 03:57 PM)

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#313869 - 02/15/13 05:15 PM Re: Unusual double with "rotational" system... [Re: Newbie123]
Newbie123 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 7
Gentelmnen!
Thank You for you comments!
One more queston: I coudn't find any traces of gunsmith named Moritz Doll from Bruchsal.... what are the chances that name on barrels belongs to the owner of the gun, not to the maker?...

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